Mistakes Cost Phillies

victorino out.jpgI’m sure a lot of people will be talking about Shane Victorino getting caught trying to steal second base in the ninth inning tonight at Citizens Bank Park.

It was a bad mistake, but it wasn’t the only reason why they lost to the Marlins, 5-3. The Phillies managed just six hits, and Jamie Moyer made some costly errors.

That said, that play is worth looking at a little closer.

“Evidently it’s his decision,” Phillies manager Charlie Manuel said afterward. “That was a mistake. We talk about our running game and things like that, but also you’ve got to know when to run. I can stop him, but the way our base running is set up we’d like to think that you won’t make mistakes like that.”

In other words, Manuel felt he didn’t need to put the stop sign on Victorino because he never imagined he would try to steal with the Phillies down a couple runs, nobody out and Matt Stairs at the plate.

Manuel said Matt Lindstrom‘s time to the plate was 1.37 seconds. A time of 1.4 to 1.5 seconds to the plate is great for a base stealer.

“Your catcher would have to have a bazooka to throw out a guy with speed,” Davey Lopes once told me.

Lopes said if a pitcher keeps his time below 1.28 seconds and the catcher has a good arm, it’s going to be tough to run. He said most pitchers would be happy with a 1.3, which is about average. I’m sure Victorino noticed Lindstrom’s relatively slow time to the plate and thought he could beat the throw. Regardless, Victorino never should have run in that situation.

“You don’t try it,” Manuel said. “You don’t run there.”

“I told myself, ‘Stay out of the double play,’ but I need to be safe,” Victorino said. “There’s no excuses to the fact that I f’d up. It was a stupid situation there. I’ll face the reality that I messed up.”


Jayson Werth went 0 for 4 and has two hits in his last 28 at-bats.


The Zo Zone is on Facebook and Twitter.


The highlight of the game, was the Wave going around 5 times. Shane getting caught, sucked the air right out of the ballpark.

i agree norma

I’m no Charlie Manuel, but given teh time it takes Lindstrom’s pitches to get to the plate and Shane’s speed, combined with Stair’s lack of speed, it wasn’t such a stupid play in my opinion. Instead of a possible DP, you could end up with man on 3rd, one out and a SF scores the run. I know everyone thinks Stairs comes up and hits a HR every time, but what did he do in the end? Grounded out which would have been a DP if Vic was still on first. As they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

The problem yesterday was, once again, pitching. Giving up a HR to Helms is simply pathetic. I hit better then he does, and I haven’t faced a real pitcher in 20 years (my 7 year old is good, but doesn’t really count). I liked Park’s pitching out of the pen. 1 run in 3 innings, and he saved us from having to use Madson, lidge etc.

sorry fan,not buying it.down two runs in ninth,you don’t run in that spot. if you saw the dugout charlie let him know about it right after it happened.

Having computer issues at home (needs repair or replacement?!?) so I wasn’t able to post all weekend!! (Guess its about the only thing good about being back at work?!)

Anyway in regards to the weekend series against NY, it was great baseball. The Phils really showed that they are the WFC in the house that alot $$ built. Lidge of course is a bit of worry, but overall our starting pitching looked decent. Whata disappointing loss on Saturday especially for our young starters Happ & Mayberry. Also how about the sea of red at the ballpark?!!

Last night’s game had several RISP chances that unfortunately couldn’t be captialized on. Victorino’s error wasn’t maybe the best judgement call. Was sorry that Moyer couldn’t get his 250th against the one team he has dominated over the years. Let’s hope Joe B continues the trend of improved starting pitching and we even the series tonight.

j-roll’s baserunning in the first cost a run too….mccarthy/wheels/sarge trio needs a shake-up…anyone tired of hearing about sell outs and tix availibility every other inning? call the game, gentlemen.

Greg, I hear you and I know everyone else agrees with you including Charlie and Todd. I just don’t get it. If he hadn’t ran, he’d be on first and Stair’s ground out becomes a DP. Same result, 2 out no one on. I find the Phillies running a lot less this year then last year, (I haven’t checked the stats, just a feeeling) and a bit of agresiveness won’t hurt us. We can’t always live by the long ball

ootsoots…..I agree with you, on both counts. The huge groan emanating from the stands, after J.Roll was caught, kind of set the tone of how the game was going to go. Especially, after Howard hit a bomb, with no one on. I hate solo HR’s!

As for the pointless banter of T.Mack/Wheels/Sarge…..That’s why I record the games on my DVR, and start watching half way through. I just fast-forward threw all that crap.

Norma, why not just do your own play by play with the game on mute? No need to wait to see teh game.

Anyone have any trade rumours/ideas? I mean real ones, not trade Brunlett for CC type BS.

This team relys a bit too much on the home run. Granted, they hit a lot of them, but I don’t think it’s something you can manage, which is what Charlie aimed at yesterday in bringing Stairs up in the 9th. Of all the people who should have known that, you’d figure Victorino would. Even if he was safe it’s a dumb play.

I’m hoping McCarthy grows on me, but there’s something about his cheery demeanor and constant chatter that I find annoying. It isn’t Post-Harry Syndrome either. Mostly, it’s the annoyingly constant references to pitch counts and the yammering.

And somebody please tell Sarge (who I like) to stop reading the graphics on the screen. We can read them ourselves.

Sorry, but Vic just can’t run in that spot. And saying that Stairs would have automatically hit into a DP is not true. The pitcher is pitching at that point in a completely different circumstance and can challenge the hitter because a solo HR doesn’t hurt. Stairs has a lot patience and would have made the pitcher work more with a runner on. I turned off the TV after Vic made that bonehead move. They are a different team at home for some reason and last night’s game was just not to be.

f-i-j, they don’t need to trade Bruntlett. Just bring up Ozuna. He’s better in every respect. I agree that Chase needs to rest now and then (he’s banged up and got hit on the foot with a pitch again last night) but it really annoys me to see Bruntlett as his replacement.

T-Mac is actually better when he’s with Wheels (I can’t believe I just said that—LOL!!) I actually listened to some of the weekend games on the radio (outside reading and pretending I was on the beach!) LA & Franske as I’ve said before are really fun duo. During the playoffs and WS I turned down the TV and listened to our announcers. The only problem was the radio is off the TV by a couple of seconds.

not relevant to the article, but thought I’d share…. ReclinerGM just did a great write-up on how all our top prospects are faring so far this season…


Phan, you misunderstood. I wasnt saying trade Brunlett, I was asking for trade possiblillities but only real ones. I didn’t want to see the usual fantasy ones where we give up a nothing player and get some superstar in return. I’d like to see them consider Josh Johnson (KC) or some other youngish pitchers who are having breakout years in return for either one of our starting OFers or a basket of prospects.

I’m still looking for possible trades

I don’t know if Mayberry is quite ready to replace Werth at this point. He’s obviously ready as a fielder but I wonder if he would strike out too much. He’s got a big swing and we have enough strikeouts in the lineup as it is. Frankly, I like Werth better than Vic at this point. He’s a better baserunner and Vic makes me nervous with his backpedalling style out there in center. Werth has better fundamentals. Either one could bring something substantial in a trade but I think we may leave our outfield a little short. Take from Peter to pay Paul, as it were.
My gut is that if they need a pitcher any time soon it will be Bastardo instead of a trade. They just moved him up to Lehigh Valley and his BB/SO ratio is sick.

There is a lot of irony in last night’s loss. Wes Helms and Ronnie Paulino, the two Fishy heros accounted for all 5 of the Marlins’ runs, were thrown away by the Phils as if they were garbage. What goes around comes around……

Every once in a while a blind squirrel finds a nut. They were thrown away as if they were garbage because they are garbage, especially Helms.

I actually like T.Mac. Like how he calls the game. And I know, most people here don’t like Wheels. But I don’t have a problem with him at all. It’s Sarge who gets on my nerves! BIG time! He always seems likes he’s reading from notes. Even when it’s just idle banter!

I can’t believe that some Phils fans don’t think that Shane getting caught stealing second base last ngiht with Stairs at the plate down by 2 was a big deal. What the heck is Shane doing? That’s the last thing you want to do when you’re down by 2 and you have a home run hitter like Stairs. That play was stupid. As far as T-Mac goes, I like T-Mac, he is a really good annuncer. I think Phils fans should start getting used to him being the lead annuncer for Phillies, becasue I beleive he’s Harry’s replacement.

I just saw that the phils traded Justin Lehr over the weekend to the Reds for cash. I don’t get it. This kid ws putting up great numbers in LV and if they were going to trade him could have been part f a package for a proven starter. When did we become so cash poor that we sell prospects?

Honestly, I think that the Phils’ are getting ready to make a move. Granted, selling players for cash can be used for numerous roster moves, I think that they are going to go after a starter. However, the Phils’ still owe a ton of money, to Jim Thome, Adam Eaton and Geoff Jenkins in particular. (I think they owe close to 20 mil? Someone correct me please, lol)

I heard over the weekend that they were going to make a run at Astro’s starter Roy Oswalt. The guy has decreased in value over the past couple of seasons, but he is still a top notch pitcher. The thing is, it’s most likely going to take at least Werth and Marson to get a deal done. The Astros would probably like another pitching prospect in return, but the Phils’ seem to be alright in their prospect pitching depth. (Carrasco, Bazardo, Drabek come to mind.) I’ve also heard that they were interested in Jarrod Washburn, Erik Bedard and Jake Peavy. =)

I kind of like Josh Johnson (KC) or Matt Cain (SF). both are on teams which need help and aren’t going anywhere and both have great era’s and pitch lots of innings.

I heard Zo talking on WIP today about Blanton. It looks to me like he is injured. His back is too stiff after he releases the ball. And he doesn’t push off his back foot as hard as a pitcher should. I don’t know if it’s his back or leg, but he seems injured.

I don’t think Blanton is injured. I think that he’s in such poor shape that it takes him two or three months to be able to throw comfortably with his body that way. Too bad Brett couldn’t force Blanton into his offseason workout program. His new body is showing early dividends

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