Go For It


halladay 0724.jpgShould the Phillies go for it, Cole Hamels?

Should they go get Roy Halladay?

“It depends on if you want to try to win the World Series the next two years because that’s what he’s going to be here for,” Hamels said. “Winning the World Series or at least attempting to win the World Series the next two years will please us, please the organization and please the fans. You can’t really complain about that. I think it would be a step in a good direction.”

Two baseball sources said today that a trade between the Phillies and Blue Jays for Halladay is not imminent, although there are indications a deal is getting close. The Blue Jays are believed to be seeking Double-A Reading right-hander Kyle Drabek, Phillies left-hander J.A. Happ and Triple-A Lehigh Valley outfielder Michael Taylor or Single-A Clearwater outfielder Dominic Brown as part of a deal.

A Blue Jays scout watched Lehigh Valley right-hander Carlos Carrasco pitch tonight in Gwinnett, Ga. As the teams work on a package, Carrasco could be included if the Phillies insist on keeping Happ or Drabek.

Jason Donald and Lou Marson also have been mentioned as possible pieces.

Drabek has been deemed The Untouchable, although there are reports the Phillies are open to moving him. Phillies general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. said Thursday, “There are some people we would not trade and there are some people we would, and it’s all subject to change.”

Hamels certainly would welcome Halladay. He is one of the best pitchers in baseball and he would make life a little easier for him atop the rotation.

“I think he’s the best pitcher in baseball, and I think he can help out any team,” Hamels said. “He’ll definitely help us. I think we have a tremendous team, and then you add one of the best players in baseball. He doesn’t have an ego, so I think he’d fit in really well in this picture.”

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The Tigers have a scout at tonight’s Phillies game, and the Phillies had a scout at the Tigers game yesterday. The Phillies could be taking a look at Ryan Raburn. Raburn is a right-handed hitter who can play everywhere but shortstop and catcher. The Tigers are looking for starting pitching, although I’m not sure if there is a match … unless the Phillies end up dealing Rodrigo Lopez to make room for Pedro Martinez‘s inevitable arrival.

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Has Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi really stopped talking?

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The Zo Zone is on Facebook and Twitter.

56 Comments

Like I said in an earlier post, I think from other reports of what the Jays are possibly interested in from other teams they are asking for the world, if they get it, then they are deemed hero’s if they don’t they can say, “well we tried”… Only team that may give up the future would be the Yankees as I see it…. but I am just a mere pawn in the world and have no control over these rooks and knights or kings and I guess some may even be queens….
Halladay, Halladay, Halladay, it’s at the point for me where they should just do it or walk away…. too much dicking around and he said she said stuff…

this is probably the most exhausting trade rumor i can ever remember. the worst part of the whole ordeal is nothing has changed since the announcement of Halladay being on the market. this is merely media speculation that fuels these rumors. and that GM in toronto is a complete moron. not only is he asking way too much, but i can never believe what he says. just yesterday he back pedaled on who came to who about a list of teams that Halladay could be traded to

Dave Murphy (the CHeese) has a great post on his blog:
“Having not typed the name “Roy Halladay” at any point in the last 24 hours, I fear my fingers are losing the muscle memory I had built up in preparation for this final week before the trade deadline. As I Twitter-ed a couple nights ago, it is my opinion that the Phillies odds at landing Halladay have increased over the week. Kyle Drabek is still in play, regardless of the reports you read stating that he was out of contention. But if the Phillies are going to give up the package it might take to land Halladay, don’t be surprised if Doc isn’t the only Toronto player headed south. The Blue Jays have several role players would could help the Phillies fill another one of their needs, whether it is another arm for the bull-pen or a right-handed bat off the bench.

Below are six players who could help the Phillies, four of whom would appear to be in the realm of possibility.

Would the inclusion of any one of these players make a blockbuster package that includes Drabek more palatable?

Here is a breakdown (P.S. – Pedro Martinez will indeed start on Sunday for Class A Clearwater, as has been expected. But I’m sure you already knew that):

1) Marco Scutaro, INF

Plusses: He is 33 years old, a right-handed hitter, and a free-agent-to-be who is owed roughly $500,000 for the rest of this season, which means he is an ideal candidate for the Blue Jays to move. He is hitting .286/.383 with eight home runs and 43 RBI, is 8-for-12 on stolen bases, and is hitting .286/.406 against lefties. He can also play anywhere in the infield, and has spent some time in the outfield.

Minuses: Doesn’t have a lot of experience as a pinch-hitter (7-for-42 career). Is a career .252 hitter against lefties.

2) Jason Frasor, RHP

Plusses: Is 31 years old and due to make roughly $700,000 over the rest of the season. Is a free agent after this year. Is 5-2 with a 2.25 ERA in 39 appearances (36 innings pitched). Has held righties to a .156 average. Since June 1 has held opponents to a .226 average and posted a 2.08 ERA. The Phillies already have three pitchers capable of going multiple innings in Chan Ho Park, Clay Condrey and Chad Durbin and two lefties in Scott Eyre and J.C. Romero, which means there is a spot for a guy who can come in and run through a stretch of right-handed batters.

Minuses: Adding Halladay’s salary could make Frasor cost-prohibitive, unless the Phils move another salary out.

3) Kevin Millar, INF

Plusses: The Phillies looked at Millar in the offseason, but like most right-handed bats, the veteran opted to head for somewhere where playing time was more plentiful. A veteran who has been part of winning clubs. Has power. Is due to earn roughly $400,000 the rest of the season and is a free agent at the end of the year. Is hitting .298/.347 vs LHP this season.

Minuses: At 37, has seen his production drop each of the last three seasons. Has been used mostly at DH this season, although can play third and first. Career .200 pinch-hitter, including 0-for-8 this season. Hitting .237 this year.

4) Brandon League, RHP

Plusses: Due to earn roughly $300,000 the rest of this season. Arbitration-eligible. Has held righties to .233 BAA (.276 lefties). 4.80 ERA.

Minuses: Would he be an upgrade?

5) Scott Downs, LHP

Plusses: 2.08 ERA with nine saves this season.

Minuses: Owed roughly $1.75 million for rest of this season and $4 million next. Phils probably wouldn’t want to take on that kind of salary, with Madson, Romero and Lidge due to earn signficant money next year.

6) Scott Rolen, 3B

Plusses: Would make for a great story, not to mention a hell of a right-handed bat to break up the Phillies’ lefties. A line-up of Rollins, Utley, Rolen, Howard, Ibanez, Victorino, Werth, Ruiz would present some intriguing possibilities. Plus, who wouldn’t want to see the smoke steaming from the stands at Citizens Bank Park as fans try to figure out if they should cheer or boo him.

Minuses: Besides the fact that there is no way it will happen? Pedro Feliz is hitting .293/.341 this season, has displayed more power than Rolen over the last two-plus years, and is not a huge drop-off defensively. Oh, and there is the $17 million Rolen is owed through next season.”

TOdd: This is the kind of insight we need from you.

How does a roster which included Ferguson Jenkins, Ryne Sandberg, Steve Carlton and Mike Schmidt sound? Four HOFers with three being home grown. Of couse it didn’t happen. Why? Because Jenkins and Sandberg were expendable prospects. I bet when the Phillies traded Jenkins and three or four other prospects for Larry Jackson and Bob Buhl in 1966, they thought they had acquired two pieces of the missing puzzle or just enough to push them over the top. After all, they almost did it in 1964 and had a winning record in 1965. Besides, how were the Phillies suppose to know that Jenkins would run off six straight 20+ seasons starting in 1967? And Ivan DeJesus was probably just what the doctor ordered when the Phillies obtained him in 1982 for Larry Bowa and that throw in, what’s his name? Ah, yes, that would be Ryne Sandberg. But in Ivan’s defense the Phillies did make it to the WS in 1983. Of course Ivan sported a .249 BA in his two years with the Phillies.

And of course Jenkins and Sandberg did get the Cubs to how many World Series…ah, never mind. You forgot to mention Rick Wise for Carlton on the other side of the ledger. How’d that work out for ya?

I realize what I was getting at might be too deep for certain shallow minds lurking here, so I’ll break it down. The Phillies would have been a better team with Ferguson Jenkins and Ryne Sandberg than they were without them or with any of the players they received in the trades involving these guys. Whether or not Jenkins and Sandberg were on championship teams is irrelevant. Are you with me so far? Do you want me type slower? Rick Wise had a good major league career. He won 188 games. He went to a WS sooner than Carlton did. And, Carlton was with the Phillies for 8 years before he got to the WS.

I dont even think the Phillies need him. Just saying. They have a good team with what they have now. http://tribechick.mlblogs.com/
-TC

indianslove………I concur that the Phillies do not need him. But it is not a question of need as much as it is a question of greed. Not satisfied with a WS many fans are greedy for a repeat. Of course if the pursuit of a repeat imperils the franchise for the next 3, 4 or 5 years that is a of no consequence to certain segments of the Phillies fan base.

You also didn’t bring up Lenny Dykstra for Juan Samuel, either. Ultimately, I think we can all agree it ends up in a wash.

Jayson Stark at ESPN says (as of 2 hours ago) that the Phillies are now balking at the Blue Jays’ asking price, which was formally presented Thursday as J.A. Happ, Kyle Drabek and Dominic Brown. It’s believed they’re hoping to substitute Carlos Carrasco for one of Happ or Drabek, particularly Drabek. If so, this is why the deal was not done in time for last night’s game. Halladay has approved a trade to the Phillies, so says Fox. You’d have to think that it’s now down to this minor detail (no pun intended) of Carrasco or Drabek. Perhaps Carrasco and a single-A guy instead of Drabek?

Ricciardi’s proposal is a good one, and unless this is a negotiating tactic (it may well be), Rube is stupid to reject it.

IF we get Halladay, I sure hope he lives up to the media hype. (No offense, Todd.) We’ve been burned in the past!

How is it “media hype?” Look at his numbers for yourself, they’re there for everyone to see.

I think it was the right choice, whatever Jays ask for is more than they really expect to get, normal to ask for the world and end with something less…

Ryne Sandberg didn’t play in the major leagues until 1982, by which time Fergie Jenkins was a washed up 39 year old, just hanging on. They never would have played together. And Roy Halladay is not Bob Buhl or Larry Jackson. He is arguably the best pitcher in MLB. I posit that as a pretty significant difference.

More strawman arguments and smokescreens from the guy who is afraid to play with the big boys. Especially because we all know for sure that Drabek will have a HOF career. No question.

The reality is, there is only one guy in the conversation who is pretty certain to be in the HOF and it ain’t Kyle Drabek.

I guess media *hype* was the wrong choice of words. I know Halladay has the numbers. And we’d be lucky to have him. But again…..The Phillies have been burned in the past, by both pitchers and postion players with great numbers, that didn’t pan out. Guess I’m just a typical Philadelphia fan. Thinking things won’t go our way. LOL!

norma, it’s understandable. There are plenty of reasons to feel that way. You and others may fall into the profile of a negadelphian. Here is the Webster’s definition:

Main Entry: neg•a•del-phi-an

Function: noun
Date: 20th century
1 a : marked by denial, prohibition, or refusal to believe that anything good can happen for Philadelphia sports teams b : usually an individual who has been a Philadelphia sports fan dating back to the early 1960’s (specifically 1964); attitude is passed on to progeny
2 a : lacking positive thoughts about Philadelphia sports in general b : marked by features of hostility, withdrawal, or pessimism that hinder or oppose constructive treatment of the current Philadelphia sports teams c : past is prologue

Don’t be scared to play with the big boys. We’re the World F’ing Champions!!

phan52, nice “research”. pherrisphain, chewed me out yesterday for my implying he was one.

The question is what does Roy Halladay guarantee the Phillies? The answer is no more than Larry Jackson and Bob Buhl. I want to say that at least Jackson and Buhl non-guarantee came more cheaply but, on second thought, a HOF pitcher is expensive in most circles. And, although Jenkins did not have his most stellar years in 1982 and 1983, the fact remains that his and Ryne Sandberg’s career did overlap for two years. So yes, four Phillies players who made it to the HOF all played in 1982 and 1983.

Thanks for the history lesson. We have some future HOF-caliber playrs on the roster now. They will be together on the team until 2011. That’s why a lot of fans see this as a window of opportunity to win another WS this year or next. With Roy Halladay as ace of the staff, our odds of winning it all go way up. Before you restate your point about Halladay demanding a trade in the off-season, read phan52’s post. Once Halladay pitches his first complete-game shutout in the playoffs, he’ll be begging for a contract extension!

Phan52 is entitled to his opinion but he is not entitled to the facts. And he is not entitled to spew his venom on anyone posting here who does not agree with his opinion. The Bloviator has a right to want Halladay just as much as others do not want Halladay for whatever reason. My facts are correct, his are not.

pherris: agree Halladay won’t guarantee anything, but sure increases our chances. He is the arguably the #1 or 2 best pitcher in baseball and has been for a few years. Your disjointed comparison of his impact regarding Buhl and Jackson though is silly. Halladay is a used Lexus, hopefully about to be parked in a garage of Corvettes and Mercedes. Jackson and Buhl were two used Edsels, parked in a garge full of Falcons. Drabeck is the promise of an battery powered car, who knows how that will turn out? It’s a risk vs. reward proposition and IMHO, clearly on the reward side. Did I type that slow enough for you or was I too shallow?

Pherrisphain, yoiu have a lot of nerve accusing anybody here of venom. You have had no respect for anybody’s opinion since you got here. And that’s what you have…an opinion, not facts. Project more, if you can.

You are so myopic in your arguments about past trades that you even try to make a case that the Wise/Carlton trade wasn’t completely one-sided in our favor. Your a scared negadelphian to the core. Let’s not ever trade anybody. I’m sure that you are now upset that Josh Outman and Gio Gonzalez are pitching in the major leagues. What could have been. Michael Bourne anybody?

And most of all, let’s not trade a player who hasn’t pitched an inning above AA for the best pitcher in baseball. That would be stupid.

Guarantees, indeed…

I think pherris has a brother named TRUTH from the old ZoZone…or maybe they are the same guy. LOL!

phan52….My Oh My! You do have your hackles up, don’t you? I state my opinion without attacking anyone elses unless, as you often do, I am attacked for my opinions. Fact is Sandberg and Jenkins overlapped for two years. Your opinion: Jenkins was washed up. How does this change the fact that their careers overlapped for two year? Oh! that’s right, it doesn’t. Pull out your dictionary or DSM or whatever it is you use and look up “idiot savant”.

jimmymack13 ……..We may not know who my brother is but we do know who your daddy is. I’ll make it easy for you and just give you his initials – phan52.

LOL!! Yeah, and Rick Wise made the WS before Carlton so the trade was a wash. Dude, there isn’t one person here who thinks that you make any sense.
Maybe you ought to watch the news and watch all the Phillies players hoping for Roy Halladay. And maybe Amaro will do the right thing and make it happen. Or maybe he’ll get scared like the negadelphians who pin all their hopes on AA players.

A few days before we signed Pedro, someone, (I don’t remember who) said we needed him because Lopez’s arm was shot. I wonder if that person wants to stand up and say, “Ooops, I was wrong”. We do not need Halladay to make playoffs. We may not even need him to win WS. HOwever, our chances will defiantely be better with him then without him. Yes, Drabek could be the next Cy Young. He could also be the next Mary Bystrom. Yes, DOc could opt out of his contract at the end of the sedason, he could also decide to sign a 5 year extension with the Phils. All options are available, which is why they are called options, and not facts. The only fact is that this team with Halladay is better then this team without him.
Tell me, if Halladay joins, and we win the WS this year, and perhaps next year. And Drabek goes on to win 2 cy young awards and win 250 games in his career, was it a bad trade? You have to look at the reason for the trade and not only the price paid. If the reason is to win and we win, no matter what else happens the trade was a good one for us. TIme to realize that trades can be good for both sides. No one has to get a steal in a trade.

Great Slam J-roll. Welcome back

phan52……….Evidently you watch the news a lot. Let me guess, Fox News? The land of the parallel universe.

Nice irrelevent, uninformed tangent on a baseball blog. Just another example of how you make absolutely no sense.

Pherris just make sure you are on time for dinner

If the Phillies do get Roy Halladay, they’re getting the best pitcher in baseball. Halladay gives you a chance to win each time he takes the mount, he also is very efficient so he always goes deep ( minimum of 7 innings each outing). He likes to finish each game he starts and he almost wills the team to win behind him.He really is someone very special.
It’s true, The Phillies have a good team right now and will likely get into the playoffs just as they are. But remember to repeat, the Phillies need to beat either the Yanks, the Red Sox or Tampa Bay-my opinion-the Yanks and man they are getting tougher and tougher each day as A-Rod gains strength.

What most Philly fans don’t know about Roy, is what a class act Roy and his wife Brandy are and the impact they have in the community. Roy rents a suite in the Rogers Center and fills it with under privileged kids, Brandy works with numerous charities in the area raising money and food for the children and homeless in the area.
They are both members of the Church for Latter Day Saints and practice their beliefs in their life on a day by day basis.
Good luck to the Phillies, hope we meet you in a world series again not to long down the road.

Todd: Are you paid by the comment? If so, kudos for fueling this Halladay nonsense another day.

gsjays- nice comment, it makes a change to see a good comment like that, and with it comming from a Jays fan too, at a time when they could possibly lose their most valuable player, the Phillies have a number of players with the same characteristics as Roy Halladay and should he end up in Philly I think most believe he would fit in well, and be made to feel very welcome….

muleman, what is it that makes you and ryanhowardisbetterthanyou think that this is “nonsense” and “speculation” when there are plenty of credible media reports that indicate that the Jays and Phillies have been negotiating for over a week now? Actual, formal proposals have been exchanged, considered, and rejected, and rather than bother to avail yourselves of this information you prefer to act smug and pretend that this is all hysterics about nothing at all. Why is that?

wow. Biggest trade deal for the Phils since ’93 and Zozo is AWOL? wow.

Zo’s not AWOL, it’s just how much more can anyone write on the subject? Is there any more info on all the trade possibilities that hasn’t been analyzed by now? Even this post has been reduced to name calling by some because the subject has been beaten to death and they have no more original thoughts.

As Tom Petty sings: “The waiting is the hardest part……” I think the fact that we’re prime contenders is a good sign. Also like the fact that a possible Plan “B” is Cliff Lee who isn’t too shabby.
Can’t wait until it’s August 1st! Then we will either be dancing in the streets or grumbling because Ruben couldn’t pull the trigger.

In other news: Great baseball this weekend against a very good team. How about our pitchers keeping Mr. Pujols in check throughout the series?!? Loved seeing the bats come alive just when you thought the game was going to be a nail bitter.

It’s all part of negotiations, but the Phillies response will not get a deal done. Face it, Drabek needs to be the centerpiece of any deal for the best pitcher in baseball. Also, they can probably minimize the balance of the deal if they offer Drabek. If Drabek is in there, they won’t have to include Happ, and if they want Brown instead of Taylor, I’m OK with that also. Brown’s a great prospect but he’s still in A ball. Who knows how good he really is going to be.

In the end, if it has to be Drabek, Happ and Brown I still do it.

Final answer: Phillies do not get Halladay because it makes no business sense over the duration of his contract. The most he can do is extend this season several games which even if it includes going all the way in the WS does not begin to cover the added expense. Next year the Phillies, at a minimum will be the winner of three straight NL East titles and at least 1 WS and will continue to sell out without Halladay. Any monetary benefit would occur only at the playoff level and how far they go into it. Again, it would no where near cover Halladay’s added costs. Those who have been around the Phillies for decades know what cheap is and know that the current mangement is neither cheap nor spend thrifts.

It makes perfect economic sense. His salary this year and next year are reasonable for his talent level, and the marginal economic value of every extra playoff win is far greater than any regular season game, on the order of millions of dollars. Baseball Prospectus did an excellent study on this, but I don’t have it in front of me. In any case, Halladay is a good value, even for a team as far ahead in its division as the Phillies, and the Phillies, even over the course of decades, have not been afraid to make big moves when it mattered.

Next year Jenkins, Eaton, Thome and Myers come off the books. The Phillies have a re-negotiated local TV contract and they are still printing money down at CBP. Money has nothing to do with it until they decide to get into negotiations on an extension.

Yeah thanks phan52, I forgot to mention that they’re selling out nearly every home game and putting up huge marks in the merch department.

I agree with phylan and phan52, the money part is more than resonable for a pitcher of Halladay’s caliber. And it makes perfect business and baseball sense to try and win more than one world series.

The Phillies are selling out every home game and selling plenty of merchandise without Halladay. Why exactly do the Phillies need Halladay from a business perspective?

They don’t, if you look strictly at their expected bottom line. That isn’t the point. There are other perspectives here besides focusing strictly on the business aspects.
But I’m sure an argument can be made that Halladay could very well effect their bottom line in a positive way.

pherris: Merchandise, and the monetary value of playoff wins, this year and the next. Since 2010 is an unknown at this point, he may well contribute a significant amount of regular season wins as well. There is plenty of business incentive to get Halladay. I don’t know why you’re so single-minded about that though. Do you have an ownership stake or something? You’d think you’d know more about this stuff, were that the case.

If you are sure an argument can be made that Halladay can make a positive effect on the Phillies bottom line please make it. Inquiring minds want to know, especially for the duration of his contract through 2010.

Let me tell you guys about merchandising. I see thousands of US tourists in Jerusalem every day. Jews, Christians and Muslims. I see 4 Yankee hats, and 3 Mutt hats to every Dodger hat I see. I can count on my hand how many Philly hats I see, and that’s the year after the WS win. Same for shirts, and other merchandise.

Now it’s possible that people in NY, and LA travel more to this area. It’s also possible that they get more national exposure and more internatinoal exposure and therefore have a wider fan base then just their home towns. Adding a player of Halladay’s stature will put us on ESPN and FOX more and expose the Phillies to the country and the world more. It will, therfore help sell more shirts, hats, etc. As you can see, he will, or at least can, help with merchandise.
To give an example, my 7 year old never has seen an NBA game. He was born after Jordan retired. However, if you ask him who the best player of all time was, he’ll tell you Michael Jordan, and he wants a Jordan shirt. That’s merchandising. THat’s Halladay. (BTW

The end of the post is: BTW I have seen Jordan play and don’t think he’s the best of all time. (Still remembering Dr. J)

phylan……If there is plenty of business incentives to getting Halladay we are waiting to hear them. I am no more single minded from looking at this issue from a business perspective than you are looking at it from the perspecitvie of a fan.

It’s pretty easy to end this argument…has Amaro or Montgomery mentioned in any venue that the size of his contract is an issue? Not that I know of, so what’s the problem? Assuming Myers leaves and his probable salary comes off the books (with Jenkins and Eaton), he’s paid for already. And Jeff, Jordan played MUCH better D than Doc, he was the best forward. Go buy your son the shirt. LOL!

Hey, I’m a homie. I was lucky enough to be a teen in the late ’70’s early ’80’s at the hight of Philly sports. Saw the 6ers win a championship, the Phillies win in ’80, etc. Now that was a time. We had 2 championships and 2 teams loose in the finals in the same year. City of champions. (What the F happened to Philly since then?)

Winning is the greatest incentive of all. Even with the inflated 2009 payroll, I am sure that the Phillies have made a lot more money even than the first year at CBP when they got plenty of phans in the seats strictly out of curiosity. Everybody I know clamors for Phillies tickets this year, more than

For some reason my last post went through before I was done. The point is that there are no negative reasons from a business standpoint. Halladay’s salary in 2010 fits into what they have budgeted for payroll, as they most probably would either sign Myers or a like-type player. The positive vibes from having a guy like him will create a surge in merchandising that otherwise would not be there. The Phillies owners are not bottom-lined myopic like they used to be. They can obviously see the positive aspects of spending money to improve the team.

I only have one thing to say. Remember when the Phillies traded away the farm for Von Hayes? It took years to get the farm system back. Keep Happ, Drabeck, and the others. The young pitchers are doing alright for us.

can you name any of the prospects traded in that deal? I dind’t think so

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