Pedro Goes Wednesday, Moyer Goes to Pen

pedro signs.jpgThe Phillies announced Pedro Martinez will make his Phillies debut Wednesday against the Cubs at Wrigley Field.

They moved Jamie Moyer to the bullpen to make room for Martinez in the rotation.

The Phillies rotation looks like this for the immediate future:

– Tuesday vs. Cubs: LHP J.A. Happ
– Wednesday vs. Cubs: RHP Pedro Martinez
– Thursday vs. Cubs: LHP Cliff Lee
– Friday vs. Braves: RHP Joe Blanton
– Saturday vs. Braves: LHP Cole Hamels

Martinez went 1-1 with a 5.11 ERA (seven earned runs in 12 1/3 innings) and 16 strikeouts in three rehab starts. The Phillies have not yet made a move to accomodate Martinez on the 25-man roster. That will come before his start Wednesday at Wrigley Field.

“Based on our reports on how Pedro has pitched in his rehab starts, we felt it was time to move him into our rotation,” Charlie Manuel said in a statement.  “Jamie was a total professional and team player when we let him know of the decision to move him to the bullpen.  He has been and will continue to be a very important part of this team.”

The team is flying to Chicago tonight, which means Martinez, Moyer, Manuel and pitching coach Rich Dubee will be unavailable until tomorrow. But I had a chance to speak with Ruben Amaro Jr. Here is some of what he said:

Q: Why did the team decide to move Moyer to the bullpen to give Martinez a shot?
A: We just felt that Pedro is pitching well enough that he deserves a chance to pitch in the rotation, and we hope it’s an upgrade.
Q: How tough of a decision was this considering how much Moyer has meant to the organization? It’s different moving a guy like Moyer to the bullpen than somebody like Eude Brito or Amaury Telemaco.
A: Clearly, he’s got a lot more of a track record and he’s done a lot more for us than your average pitcher. Jamie has dedicated himself to his starts and to his performance and he will continue to do that, but we are trying to do what we can to win baseball games and win this division. And these are baseball decisions that are made collectively, and we feel it’s for the betterment of our club.
Q: Can Jamie be effective in the bullpen? He’s 46 and hasn’t done that in years.
A: We’ll see. He’s done it before. He hasn’t done it in a long time, but we’ll see how it goes. You’ll have to talk to Dubee and Charlie about what his role is, but we’ll see how effective he can be.
Q: How did Jamie take the news?
A: Extremely professionally. You’ll have to talk to Jamie about it, but I’m sure he wasn’t real happy about it. But at the same time he understands that we’re doing what we possibly can to have success. We just felt it was the right thing to do and he understands it.
Q: What are the realistic expecations for Pedro?
A: We’re going to watch him pitch and hopefully he’s an effective starter for us. I don’t have expectations one way or another, other than we hope he is successful and he helps us win games.


Left-hander J.C. Romero had a MRI today. Amaro said Romero has mid-grade tendinitis that is healing. He will not throw for another week or so, when he will return to Clearwater to begin his rehab.


The Phillies activated right-hander Chad Durbin from the DL. He went on the DL on July 23 with a right latissimus dorsi strain (that’s fancy talk for strained back muscle). The Phillies optioned right-hander Rodrigo Lopez to triple-A Lehigh Valley to make room for Durbin. Lopez had a clause in his contract that stated he must consent to an assignment in the Minor Leagues. He had an option remaining, which is why they were able to option him.


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The only logical thing to do. Let’s hope Pedro’s ball can dance like it used to. I, for one, am excited to see what he has.

And now the rotation is aligned how it should be.


Although Hamels is the 4th best pitcher on the staff.

I guess the right decision, but just can’t see Jamie being anything but a long reliever, coming out of the ‘pen. That must have been a tough meeting for Charlie. Doesn’t surprise me that Jamie was *a total professional and team player*. But still had to be tough.

Seems like the way to go, although I hope Jamie is reserved for mop-up for the time being.

joed21, Hamels is the second best pitcher on that list, he just happens to be having a shaky season. He’ll recover.

What is the rotation for the next 5 games? Happ-Martinez-Lee-Blanton- Hamels?

Duh, I didn’t read the article. Sorry Todd, my bad.

Can someone please tell me why Cliff Lee is getting an extra day of rest so that Pedro can start Wed? With the off day today there’s no reason to use a 5th starter this week. It could be Happ/Lee/Blanton/Hamels/Pedro/Happ…. WTF am I missing? No reason to try to “set up the rotation” this early imo.

I can’t believe that a guy like Lopez has an option left.

Adios, Jamie, take this as a hint. Retire at the end of this year. Of course why would you when he can soak the Phillies for millions.

I don’t like this move at all. First off, why does Pedro deserve a chance to start for the Phillies. He’s not the Pedro of the Boston Red Sox days and he sucked for the NY Mets. Why?

If anything, Pedro should have been the guy to become the middle reliever. This move is totally wrong. Jamie Moyer is a stand up pitcher who has been very good for the Phillies, I guess that’s the way they treat a good pitcher nowadays.

He should tell this like it is, not just ‘take it like a gentleman.” He’s a starter, not a reliever and he deserves respect. He didn’t get it from Amaro. Booooooo!!!!!

What Jamie Moyer have you been watching? Dude has a 5.47 ERA (5.39 FIP) and gives up 1.61 homeruns per 9 innings, with a WHIP over 1.5. He hasn’t been very good for the Phillies, and it’s worth checking out Martinez to see if he’s any better.

Dude, the Phillies have 61 wins this year to this point. Moyer has 10 wins this year. That is 10, one number past 9. I don’t care about all the other numbers.

I’ve watched Jamie pitch all year and he has done fine. In fact last year he almost outpitched Cole Hamels in the regular season. That’s why the Phillies resigned him for so much money, they don’t just give money away like that.

Have you looked at Hamels numbers? 7-7 with a 4.59 era. Is that better than Jamie? Don’t give me all those other weird stats that you quoted either. I don’t care how many times a pitcher scratched his nose on average during a game or any other average for that matter. Give me wins – losses and to some extent ERA.

I’ll see your posts when Pedro gets rocked into Waveland Avenue and he doesn’t make 4 innings for the Phils on Wednesday. Martinez was a bum with the Mets, what has changed with him? And why didn’t anyone want him until the Phillies came calling this late into the season?

pherrisphain- take a chill pill and stop trying to get eveyone over the age of 30 to retire… if martinez blows his first couple of starts you’ll be crying for him to be let go, waste of money etc…
Phylan- I know stats is your big things everything revolves around stats, and I agree they should to some extent, but it has to be about what have they done lately and what are they doing now, and Moyer is not a lot different to Hamels lately, the Phillies are rolling the dice and hoping that Martinez is the winning number, if it’s not then they’ll scratch their heads and um and ar until it’s to late, so I hope for everyones sake Martinez works out, cause if he doesn’t forget October ball…

     fightinphillies, I’m actually agnostic about Pedro. It’s difficult to predict based on his minor league appearances how he will fare, and I’ve said before I suspect he will not do well and Moyer will find his way into the rotation.
     That being said, wins are meaningless in evaluating pitchers. A pitcher can give up 10 runs and still get the win. A pitcher can come in and not throw a single pitch and still get a win (as happened with the Rockies a few weeks ago). A pitcher can give up 1 run over 8 innings and still get the loss. ERA has its own problems, but it is a good starting point. And yes, Hamels has pitched better than Jamie, to the tune of one less run per nine innings, as you yourself just pointed out.
     The other stats I cited are not “weird” stats at all. The first was homeruns allowed per nine innings, which is a huge part of a pitcher’s job: keep the ball in the ballpark. And if you’ve been watching, the Phillies rotation has had a problem with that this season. Moyer’s mark in that department happens to be worst on the team. The other was walks plus hits per inning pitched, or, more simply, baserunners per inning pitched. That’s another crucial part of a pitcher’s job – keeping runners off base. How are these “weird” to you? And while you’re at it, how on earth did Moyer “almost outpitch” Cole Hamels in 2008?

here’s your stats: since everyone seems to love ERA’s and not wins
Moyer 7.2 ERA
Hamels 8.71 ERA
Moyer 3.30 ERA
Hamels 4.38 ERA
To much is placed on pitchers per game, if the fielders are positioned right a fly ball pitcher is screwed, which has been the case for some recent Phillie starts, you dont see the Phillies coaches directing traffic like you do other teams, maybe our fielders are to great to be directed or the coaches are to into dugout conferences to do their jobs. All these things can effect a pitchers stats, which is why it has to be what have you done for me lately..

To answer someone’s questions about why Lee is pitching on Thursday, I think they wanted to give him some extra days of rest since his last several outings (including those with the Indians) he pitched close to or a complete game.

Interesting fact I heard on “Daily News Live” tonight from Ken Rosenthal: Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay have both spent time in AAA during their careers. This is not to suggest that Hamels needs a trip there. I really think his poor year has to do with the larger number of innings he pitched last year along with that he’s a young pitcher still finding his way.

Moyer is a class act. I bet he makes a great contribution to the Pen in his usual way of teaching and life lessons. Maybe we’ll see him start a time or two before the end of the season.

Who knows maybe Pedro will surprise us?!?

    &nbspdevilabrit, I can’t say I agree with the “what have you done lately” mentality in this case. Jamie Moyer is an aged junkballer who has served the Phillies well, but is plagued with spurts of bad location, and something as simple as a narrow strike zone from an umpire means he gets shelled, because he has poor stuff and even poorer velocity.
     Hamels is a premier talent with a 91-93 mph fastball and a devastating changeup, and he does a few TV commercials and has some bad outings and everyone who posts here is ready to call him bullsh** nicknames like “Hollywood” and send him down to AAA. That’s the kind of danger that mentality creates. Just look at all the people who think Moyer’s a better pitcher than him. I’m sorry, but that’s insane.

and don’t read to much into this I dont think for one minute Hamels should be put in the pen, I just not sure about Martinez, would have been more inclined to have some extra rest revolved around Hamels, Moyer and Martinez for the next 2/3 weeks and make the right choices going into September instead of rolling the dice in opne direction and hoping for the best, last interview with Martinez I saw, he said he THINKS he’s ready but it’s hard to say cause he hasn’t really seen any major leaguers for sometime…yeah thats the way to win lets go on a THINKS…god help Martinez if he sucks…

Its going to be one of those things where we won’t know if it was right or wrong till the end of the month, I just hope we are still riding the top of the division, by then we have some tough games coming up, and Wrigley could be a good test for Martinez, the Braves will be a better test

I don’t understand what you’re saying. The Phillies defensive alignments are directed from the dugout just like every other team. And if you’re worried about the defense’s effect on pitcher metrics, that’s why the best baseball minds have developed defense-independent stats like FIP, although I get piled on every time I mention that.

oh I agree devilabrit, Martinez could be great or abysmal or anything in between. I just think giving him two or three starts to see isn’t a big deal. If he’s worse than Moyer it’s easy enough to bring Jamie back to the rotation.

I guess 200 strikeouts is acceptable these days as well. If Mike Schmidt struck out anywhere near that number people who have had him on a cross but it’s ok for Ryan to swing like a rusty gate as long as he gets 50 homeruns? That is more an individual stat more than a team stat. I would have traded Howard for Halladay straight up no questions asked.

Wins don’t matter as a pitcher? I don’t believe it, look at how few pitchers have won 300 games in their careers. Jamie Moyer has over 250 wins, that puts him in a very elite club. Moyer is the veteran, he shouldn’t have been moved, even if Amaro had to put Happ on a quick trip to the bullpen. He has the rest of his career to go, Jamie is down to a few precious starts left in his, and he isn’t doing all that bad. Read my post on my website at

How many pitchers have 10 or more wins in the MLB this year? You’ll find the answer there. And when you find that list, you’ll see the names of players who’s teams are also doing real well.

fightin… By not understanding that wins are an almost meaningless stat, you have guaranteed that I will never look at your blog.

     No, wins don’t matter, and Jamie Moyer is proof of that. Since you’re so fond of pointing out that he leads the team in wins, why don’t you actually take a close look at the wins he collected. How many wins does Jamie have where he went less than 6 innings, allowed more than 3 runs, or didn’t pitch a quality start? Four. Four of his ten wins fall in those criteria, the most out of any starter on the Phillies (Cole Hamels only has one, by the way). Furthermore, Jamie gets the second most run support of Phillies starters this season – the Phillies have scored 5.6 runs per game when he starts. That certainly helps the win total.
     Do you see the problem? Wins obscure what a pitcher really does during the game because they are a binary result. Either you win or you don’t, and you can pitch very, very well and lose, or pitch very, very poorly and still win. You’re focusing on the statistic that has the least to do with the pitcher’s performance.
     I don’t understand the relevance of your point about the strikeouts, but I will say I don’t think anyone is happy about the fact that Howard approaches 200 Ks each year. Nonetheless, if he is getting on base at the same rate as average hitters in the league (and he is right now), it goes some way towards mitigating all of the strikeouts. Howard isn’t great at drawing walks, but he is only a little bit below the league average for strikeout to walk ratio, so he’s partially making up for all of the strikeouts with walks.

And while wins/losses mean nothing for pitchers, you would think that all the people that love to point out that Jamie leads the team in wins would also point out that he leads the team in losses.

I didn’t know Joe Morgan posted here? Interesting. Wins as a meaningful stat.

fij definitely shed a tear with this news. I can’t believer they would send the true first ballet hall of famer down in Lopez. What a travesty.

     Hey phightinphillies, here’s a little exercise for you.
     Let’s take two pitchers, Pitcher A and Pitcher B. Pitcher A, in 22 games, threw 152 innings, gave up 53 earned runs (for a 3.14 ERA), walked 33 batters, struck out 107, gave up 10 home runs, and threw 67% of his pitches for strikes.
     Pitcher B, in 22 games, goes only 123.2 innings, gave up 75 earned runs (for a 5.47 ERA), walked 38 batters, struck out 69, gave up 22 home runs, and threw 63% of his pitches for strikes.
     Two questions: First, which pitcher do you think pitched better over that 22 game stretch? Secondly, which pitcher do you think had more wins?

Any true Phillies fan has to feel for Moyer, if you don’t feel bad to some degree, then don’t call yourself a fan. Remember that start in Game 3 of the WS last year? Did you expect Moyer to pitch good? No. But did he? Yes, an incredible game he started. I know him numbers are bad this year, but still, this isn’t some no name AAA pitcher who struggles and you don’t care what happens to him. As previously stated, you have to feel for the guy

I thank Jaime Moyer for his service to this team and hope he can contribute more on the field for the remainder of his contract. He’s a class act and an incredible example of brains meaning more than athleticism, even at the highest level of baseball.

devilabrit ………….Who died and left you the Republican of this site?

Since my name was mentioned (Joed), I’m shedding many a tear today at the aperent end of Jamie Moyer’s career as a Phila Philie Starting pitcher. Very few players have managed to capture the hearts of the city the way Moyer did, especially considering that he came to town very late in his career and past his prime. THe only other example that comes to mind is Moses Malone–and it’s because BOTH brought us championships.

Whether Pedo will be a better option, a worse option, or esentially the same is yet determined, yet one thing is for sure, he will not contribute to this team nearly as much as Jamie has, not as a player, not as a leader, not as a mentor and definately not in his charitible activities. THis is the main reason many of us are strugling with the fact that he has to be replaced in teh rotation. Unlike certain posters, some of us have hearts and would rather accept a worse pitching option in order to be better human beings.

As for Lopez, it was clear from his first inning out of the bullpen that he wasn’t going to survive there, and I have no problem with him being sent down from that role, which he wasn’t suited for. However, if you line up his stats as a starter, Moyer’s and what I expect to see from Pedro I am willing to put money that his stats (no matter which one you want to use Phylan) are better.

Which ever idiot said as long as Ryans OBP is the same as the average player (oh, it was you Phylan?) doesn’t care about moving the runner from 1st to 2nd I guess. WHile a ground out is an out the runner can move over and be knocked in by the next guy (Ibanez). With a K the only thing that has changed is the number of outs. Obvioulsy a hitter with a .300 OBP who has 200 ground outs is more valuable then a player with a .300OBP with 200 Ks (forgetting about what they did during their other at bats) I’m surprised you didn’t find a stat which would tell you this.

Phylan, look at my list on my website, I won’t indulge in your stat for stat comparision.

Look also at last year’s numbers for Moyer and Hamels, Moyer was just a hair away from being the best Phillies pitcher overall sans the playoffs last year.

And lastly but most importantly, my posts are my opinions. I try to base them on some facts, but I reserve the right to be totally wrong about them. That is what opinions are all about.

pherrisphain- if your going to try and be insulting or whatever that was meant to be, at least make it entertaining so everyone can wake up this morning with a laugh and a smile. Maybe you could explain what the Republican of the site, (now is this,, the zozone, specify terms of the word site?), is supposed to do so I can be sure and fulfill that role.

I don’t think anyone who wanted Moyer out of the rotation is not a fan and doesn’t feel for the guy. I absolutely understand what Moyer has meant to this team and he has had a great career but all things must come to an end right? Now Moyer can spread his wisdom to the guys in the pen. I know he was overpaid in the offseason but I am still fine with it because of his past performance and the knowledge he has brought to the club. But I’m not going to sit here and say he still belongs in the rotation because he doesn’t. Pedro deserves a shot and anyone who roots against him because he took Moyer’s spot are the people who aren’t fans.

And seriously a move like the one made yesterday is so refreshing considering the way the team used to handle things of a similar nature. Now sure winning a world series gives them a ton of flexibility but there is nothing worse than continuing to run a player out on the field because he is making a lot of money. Jamie got a lot of bank this offseason but right now he is not giving the team the best chance to win every fifth day so he has to take a back seat for now. Amaro, Jr. and the rest of the FO are rolling the dice with one of the best pitchers of this era at a very low cost given the production they could get out of him. To not take this chance would be the Phillies circa 2006 and before. Those days are over. This team can become a back-to-back champion or they can stroke egos and play nice. I like championships even if it means sitting down one of the classiest athletes ever to come through this city.

f_i_j you completely missed my point, which is that for a guy who strikes out as much as Howard does, he’s maintaining a pretty good OBP, which is very important.

fightinphillies, just answer my questions.

joed21, you hit it on the head. Jamie Moyer is a classy guy and I’m sad to see this happen to him. But he has 7 million dollars to keep him warm. Pedro Martinez is a future HOFer who is a better pitcher and gives them a better chance to win. His problems in NY were 100% health related and he appears to be healthy now. That’s the bottom line.

Maybe the Phillies will score crooked numbers tomorrow or maybe they will be shutout, I don’t know. But I expect a professional outing from Pedro. It is incumbent on Phillies management to give him a few starts to see what he has. As I’ve said before on this blog, I think there’s a better chance that he is brilliant than him being a failure. They have to find out.

Phylan, you’re right, I didn’t understand your point that way. If that is what you meant I agree with you. However, it’s kind of like saying “for a guy with a 5.47 ERA he has a lot of wins”

I think Pedro could inject some life in this team right now as well. I know I’m excited to see him throw and I’m sure the players are excited to see what he has to offer. It could be what the doctor ordered to break the complacency that has taken over the team right now.

I bet the players are also pretty upset to see Moyer, who has been their teammate for 3+ years sent to the bullpen, in order to make room for a formet Mutt who was sitting on the beach 2 months ago.

It’s kind of pathetic that you mention that he is a future HoFer. As you like to say, it’s a “what have you done for me lately” world. His previous success is irelevent to how he will perform tomorrow. While I hope and pray he has a great outing and shuts all of us doubting Thomases up, I suggest that Jamie keep his normal sheduale as I fully expect to see him back in the rotation within 12 days (2 starts for Pedro).

Since fightinphillies isn’t going to answer, for the record, pitcher A was Cliff Lee with the Indians, who went 7-9 over that 22 game stretch, and pitcher B was Jamie Moyer, who went 10-9.

Wow f-i-j, quite the hater aren’t you? You obviously want Pedro to fail because he happened to have played for the Mets. But let me guess. Even if he succeeds you would still rather be sentimental and see Jamie get his job back, wouldn’t you? You said as much with this statement….”some of us have hearts and would rather accept a worse pitching option in order to be better human beings.”

There is no sentiment in a pennant race. Get over it already.

fij thinks everyone deserves a trophy too. It is a what have you done for me lately business. It definitely is. And lately, aside from a couple of very strong starts Moyer has been terrible. I love the guy to death but he’s not cutting it. So in order to see what Pedro has you have to throw him. Who cares if he was a Met? He made his name with the Sox and Expos. Like phan said, get over it.

Phan, if you read what I said in my last post you would understand that while I hope Pedro has a great outing and pitches like the ace he used to be, i dont expect it to happen. This doesn’t mean i don’t want it to, it means I have my feet on teh ground and realize that he’s not the pitcher he was 10 years ago.

As for the quote you use, I stand by it. If the 5th stater, and the 1-2 more victories an amazingly good Pedro may bring us over a mediocre Moyer is the differnce between us winning the division or not, then we are in trouble. If these wins are the difference between winning the division or not the problem is most likey in the middle of the order and not on the mound.

I assume you were one of those who Booed Moyer when he left the game the other night–since “sentiment hs no place in a pennant race”

Howard bunting
Lopez is an ace
Pats on the back for piss poor starts

phylan: And Pete Rose is the all-time leader in outs.

Meanwhile, it’s nice to see others arguing with f.i.j. instead of me. Have at it, kids.

f-i-j, I will assume that you didn’t see the game because nobody booed Jamie Moyer. But it is pretty obvious that you would be prepared to boo Pedro if he didn’t perform to your standards, whatever that may be. The thing that you don’t understand is that there is a far better chance that Pedro turns out to be one of the better starters on the staff than he does of being a failure.

And yes, sentiment has no place in a pennant race. Win.

Phan, I guess we’ll meet here on Thurs and discuss Pedro’s game. You have no idea how much I hope you ae right and I eat my hat, however….

BTW, I think Ted Williams bunted to beat the shift that was being used against him once. I know Schmidt bunted on a few occasions to force the other team to play honest and not so far back (and he was a power hitter who’s job it was to knock in runs as well)

I wonder if Todd reads all of these comments?

Ted Williams had over 7,000 at-bats. Bunting once wasn’t going to get them to change their strategy. And their strategy didn’t work anyway, so I don;t get your point about Ted Williams.
If Howard starts bunting down the third base line he is playing right into their hands so that he can’t do what he does best.

f.i.j.: From Baseball Wiki:

“Williams’s hitting was so feared, and it was known that he was a dead pull hitter, that opponents frequently employed the radical, defensive “Williams Shift” against him, leaving only one fielder on the third-base half of the field. Rather than bunting the ball into the open space, the proud Williams batted as usual against the contrived defense. The defensive tactic is still used to this day, and is appropriately called the infield shift. Interestingly, it is often used against David Ortiz, Jason Giambi, Jim Thome and Travis Hafner; all of whom are left-handed batters.”

Don’t make stuff up if you don’t know the facts. The next time you see Thome, Hafner, Ortiz or any other power hitter bunt, post another dopey comment.

one bunt will change the strategy because it opens up the option. I’m not saying he should bunt every at bat, or even every 100 at bats. I’m saying do it once, get a easy hit and see if that changes the shift. If it does, great. If it doesn’t then all that happened is Howard reached base once without swinging for the fences.

Pitchers throw high and inside to get batters to back away from teh plate, and to be aware that it could happen again. It doesn’t mean they do it all the time. Same idea here Phan.

f.i.j.: You’re just relentless with that nonsense. Please stop. It’s too stupid to even consider.

By the way, Williams had exactly 5 sacrifice bunts in his CAREER, and they all occurred in his first 6 years.

All I know is that Chase Utley tried it in the WS and, after bunting foul, hit a 2 run home run. You are playing into the oppositions’ hands when these guys bunt. That’s what they want you to do.

I believe some teams even use the “shift” for Utley. One of the best regular position player bunters is Pedro I (Feliz). Every once in awhile Charlie has him bunt in certain situations.

As much as Howard SO, I think this year his situational hitting is a bit better. Take Saturday night’s game when he had two doubles.

I don’t know if Todd does read these comments but if he seriously brought up Eude Brito and Amaury Telemaco in his interview with Ruben then that is awesome. Ah the good old days of wretched Phillies baseball.

If Howard bunts tonight I’ll lose my head in uncontrollable laughter.

The fifth starter’s spot is less of a concern than the Phils’ sporadic offense. They look like world champs in July, but have now returned to their June form and can’t score runs – stranding runners on third, failing to move runners over, and so many strikeouts. It was the same last year, very inconsistent. Let’s replace Milt and dump Bruntlett to shakeup the offense?

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