Two Old Goats, One Happy, One Sad

moyer 0818.jpg
martinez 0818.jpgPedro Martinez
sounded like a man who had just thrown his first shutout since 2005, while Jamie Moyer sounded like a man who is still upset about his demotion to the bullpen.

They combined to allow just four hits and one run in last night’s 5-1 victory over the Diamondbacks. Martinez pitched three innings, retiring the final eight batters he faced. His night ended early because a severe thunderstorm hit Citizens Bank Park. Moyer, who lost his job to Martinez in the rotation, took his place. He allowed just two hits in six scoreless innings to get the win.

“You never know what you’ll get when you put two old goats out there,” Martinez said with a smile. “It’s a scary combination. You’re not going to see that very often. You might as well enjoy it. I enjoyed it.

“See? See what you get? Two for the price of one.”

Moyer was not nearly in as good a mood when he spoke with reporters, although he said he did not pitch with a chip on his shoulder.

“No, I pitched to get to the end of the game to save the bullpen,” he said.

Moyer has been upset since the Phillies told him that Martinez would take his place in the rotation. He told reporters last week in Chicago that he felt disheartened and misled because of conversations he had with the Phillies during contract negotiations. Asked last night if the past week has been emotional for him, he said he just wanted to talk about the game. Asked if he knows when he could pitch next, he said he just wanted to talk about the game. He later snapped when a reporter asked where he spent his time during the rain delay. (Answers to questions like that help reporters paint a picture where a person was in the moments leading up to a particularly noteworthy performance.)

“I didn’t know what to expect,” Moyer said. “Just go out and pitch. Try to pitch the way I’m capable of pitching and rely on my defense.”

Moyer still seems plenty steamed about his demotion.

The bad news for Moyer is that he will remain in the bullpen for the foreseeable future. But the good news is that he is pitching on a team with a chance to win a second World Series, and he’s going to be making $6.5 million this season and next no matter what happens. Whether that’s enough to improve his mood in time remains to be seen.


Charlie Manuel and Ruben Amaro Jr. talk about Brad Lidge‘s struggles. Amaro also did not sound particularly optimistic they would make a move before the Aug. 31 waiver trade deadline.


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If Jamie has a “chip on his shoulder” or is “disheartened” it looks as if Charlie and Ruben found the formula to help Jamie to succeed.

Grand Pappy needs to cheer up. He said he didn’t want to be a distraction, but acting like that he’ll soon become one. He was horrible in the rotation this season, so I’m sure Amaro felt “disheartened” and “misled” by his performance. I truly hope Moyer doesn’t tarnish his hero tag he’s earned in Philly. The fans love and respect him, as do I, but if he continues to sulk he’ll see how Philly fans can turn on him.

Yes it was highly ironic that Moyer went in as relief of Pedro. But Pedro was pitching well prior to that and I have no doubt he would had a solid game. As it was, we saved our BP for another day, and that is never a bad thing. Good job by both.

Even with a shorten appearance due to the rain, Pedro’s postgame press conference was highly entertaining. The “two old goats” were a nice tandem. Tonight’s game should be a good pitcher’s duel Harden vs. Lee.

Although its hard to be unhappy at the way the Phils are playing, the end of the bullpen and the inablility to hit with men in scoring position are still sore spots for me. Of the two, the hitting is the least likely to get better. The team is built for the ballpark and is a victim of the homerun mindset. It is interesting that they play so well on the road and I suspect it is because they are less seduced by those beckoning fences than at home and make better contact. I would like to see numbers on that. I guess that the truly amazing development is how the pitching staff has been able to perform so well despite being burdened by tight outfield walls. Amazing what concentration and adjustment can do.

Jamie has to be kidding me. It was clear as day he was out there with an attitude last night. He looked like he could have killed someone after rounding first on his 2nd hit. He was all business and I could tell he was playing with fire due to his recent demotion. Like a previous poster said, if the demotion was what he needed to wake up then good work by the organization. He was really pitching with a purpose last night. He need to keep it up should Pedro falter. But until Pedro falters Moyer is still where he belongs.…………..All of the Phillies hitting statistics at home are better than their hitting statistics on the road. Their homerun split is 83 at home and 81 on the road. I think you are in the right church but wrong pew. Visiting teams get a boost when coming to CBP particularly those whose home field is a pitchers park. And this was compounded in the beginning of the year when the Phillies pitching had a team ERA in the bottom 3 in the league. But I do not disagree that the Phillies need to step it up in situational hitting, home or away.

One thing that I was amazed about last night’s game (despite the rain delay) was how quickly Moyer pitched. I don’t recall a game of his that seemed to go so quickly. Plus he had his kind of homeplate umpire.

     msimeone, you’re right that the Phillies hit better at home, but it’s not really that drastic. They’re 5% above their average production at home, and 5% below it on the road (you can check out all the home/road splits at ). Saying that they’re “built for the park” is really, really exaggerating it. Their home/road split isn’t really worse than most other teams.
     Honestly, I would say that of the two things you mentioned, the situational hitting is more likely to get better. Stuff like hits with RISP tend to balance out and regress back close to a hitter’s overall numbers. The bullpen, on the other hand, has some personnel problems (namely, some of the personnel being bad) and I don’t see that getting fixed.

karen, I think the quickness of the game was due to the fact that Moyer was pitching with great vigor. You are right. His games always drag because he holds the ball with men on and typically just nibbles his way through the night. I felt like last night he was coming right at the hitters.

Moyer pitched weel last night, but his attitude stinks. This past week really makes me see him in a different light. I don’t see an “elder statesman” or a team player, I see a cranky old man who played us into thinking he’s those things. I also have a feeling that he’s still more of a Seattle guy than a Philly guy despite his claims over the past couple years that he’s a Phillies “fan” at heart. He got to start in a World Series game, get a ring, and end his career with a lucrative 2-year contract. Now he wants us to believe that he was “assured” he would always have a spot in the rotation? Really? Even if he had the highest ERA in the league come August?

Moyer pitched weel last night, but his attitude stinks. This past week really makes me see him in a different light. I don’t see an “elder statesman” or a team player, I see a cranky old man who played us into thinking he’s those things. I also have a feeling that he’s still more of a Seattle guy than a Philly guy despite his claims over the past couple years that he’s a Phillies “fan” at heart. He got to start in a World Series game, get a ring, and end his career with a lucrative 2-year contract. Now he wants us to believe that he was “assured” he would always have a spot in the rotation? Really? Even if he had the highest ERA in the league come August?

jesse, my brother lives in Seattle and he has become a Seatlle sports fan, forsaking all Philly teams. That city seems to grab people’s hearts ( something LA can’t do to me!). For Jamie’s kids, Seattle is their hometown, so it’s to be expected that Jamie’s heart would be in Seattle- not Philly. My brother told me that the Mariners are very interested in having Jamie as a pitching coach, but NOT as a pitcher.

Moyer needs to *man up* and quit whining! It’s baseball! I have to say, I’m more than a little disappointed in his attitude. I can understand he’s not happy with the situation. Neither was Park. But Park kept his opinions to himself, and has done a great job. After saying, “he didn’t want to be a distraction”, Moyer went right out and called an *informal* meeting with the press. Pretty distracting, if you ask me!

I was at the game last night. Quite the *fireworks* display, during the rain delay! Too bad it wasn’t on TV! LOL!

Moyer is the reason I reconnected with Phillies baseball after living away from Philadelphia for the past 17 years. Cancer figures in there too, but that’s another story. I watched him pitch as a kid and have been enjoying watching him realize his dream of winning the WS as a Phillie. It has been a dream come true for us all. In the process, I have become a fan of the ENTIRE team because playing as a TEAM is what makes this TEAM so great. Each player brings something special to this team. They pick each other up when one is down. Baseball is the best sport ever. Thanks to I can now watch the games throughout the year.

Despite my initial negative reaction to Pedro joining this team, OUR special 2008 team (why would we want an ex-Mutt?), I do think he brings yet another something special to this team — a cheerful disposition along with his pitching contributions. I like that. I think the “old goats” still have things they can learn — from each other. I’m a little disappointed in Jamie’s public reaction to his demotion too but wonder what I would be feeling and saying if I were him. This Pedro/Moyer thing is a curious story in and of itself that will be interesting to watch as the season continues to unfold. They are both charting new territory and everyone is watching to see how they handle it.

As for Moyer’s allegiance, I have no doubt that he is a Phillies fan through and through. However, he has deep roots in the Seattle area as well. I am pulling for him to continue his playing and coaching career in Philadelphia and am willing to extend some grace to a guy who has definitely earned it.

jensen, nice post. I hope things are looking up on the cancer side of your life. The whole Moyer situation is so disenchanting to me because I really liked him for the way he played the game and all the insight he has brought to the team but he has turned into this Bizarro Jamie now. I want the old Jamie back. I don’t know if he is trying to one-up Favre or what but this whole attention grabbing episode is not his style.

I’m with Norma! Jaime should stop whining, especially because, by last night’s result, it looks like Charlie made a good decision sending him to the pen!

jensenohana, you should post more often. I also hope that your cancer is gone forever or will be in remission for good. I think your desciption of Pedro is perfect. It’s hard to think of him as a villain who stole Jamie’s job when he is so nice and friendly. Plus, he has proven that he still has something left in the tank.

Hey Zach, you shouldn’t write “I’m with Norma!” because her husband may be reading these posts and get the wrong idea. lol

Todd, Why is it that there in never any accepted criticism of dumb reporter questions? You guys are worse than the umpires in the way you stick together right or wrong. Whether the subject is Andy Reid’s peevishness over Bradley’s injury. or where Moyer was during a rain delay, reporters can not evaluate their own in a fair, objective manner. And, like MLB umpires, those who challenge this ideal, are taken out to the proverbial woodshed, in the next day’s story. Yes, there is such a thing as a dumb question!
For the record, I wish reporters asked more questions about strategy and would stay away from the emo soap opera variety.

BTW, I appreciate and like your column. Please don’t take this too personally

As for Jamie, I can’t blame him for reacting the way he did. We can be sure that none of his teammates (including Pedro) hold anything he has said against him. That’s why I think Jamie told the truth when he said he wasn’t going to be a distraction to the team- he knows his teammates. The MEDIA wants us to think that he IS a distraction because that gets more interest from readers, bloggers, posters, viewers, and listeners. Some posters here have commented that his body language, facial expression and tone of voice prove that he is being a baby. Who gives a krappe what anyone NOT on the team thinks!! They’re one Brad-Lidge-blown save away from perfection (6-1) since Jamie’s last start! Look at all the damage his words have done! The season is over! There’s always next year! Jeez, some of you guys should just watch soap operas since you seem to be in touch with your feminine side.

Norma’s married??? Sigh.

erichh1………..Your so right as usual. We can’t believe our lying eyes or ears.

Todd- I like your column and it is nomrally very good, however, yesterday a guy went to the mound, pitched 6 solid innings with only 2 hits, another pitched 3 innings giving up a run and 2 hits, why is the one that put the better performance in painted in a bad light and the other a good light? and I don’t see where Moyer was during the rain delay bears any effect on his performance, nobody asked Buehlre where he was before he pitched a perfect game….the problem here is reporters were trying to make a story and created one and painted it the way they wanted it to be seen…. and if anyone at in the weather last night at Moyers age doing what he did thinks running the bases should be done with a smile on his face…good luck when you get to that age and do something as physical as he was doing…. something about how well they both did would have been enough instead of painting Moyer with the grumpy old man brush, and Martinez with fun loving clown brush…

Generally, Jamie carries himself with the expression of a man who doesn’t have enough fiber in his diet. That was the case before his “demotion,” so I don’t know that it is radically different. Since the media is probably not happy about how he “used” them the other week (i.e. as his personal soapbox, and then forbid them from asking him any questions), I can’t help but wonder if his “dour” expression and mood isn’t being played up a bit. I don’t respect how he handled himself the other week, but I’m not sure that he’s acting all that differently than normal in terms of his demeanor.

pherrisphain, I never wrote that Jamie wasn’t being a baby. I live in LA so I didn’t see the game. I saw the highlights, but that’s beside the point. The point is who cares if he is or not if it doesn’t adversely effect the team’s chemistry and performance? Magic Johnson was one of the biggest crybabies in the history of the NBA. John Mc Enroe cried over every bad call by a line judge. If Jamie’s body language and gestures bother you so much that you can’t enjoy watching the game, turn off the TV and listen to the game on the radio.

Is it possible that Jamie is upset and bothered by the MEDIA’s trying to make a story out of nothing and Not by being moved to the pen? Wouldn’t he behave in exactly the same way?

erichh1……….I am not going to let Moyers hissy fits dictate whether or not I watch a Phillies game. Truth be known I saw my first game before he was born. Moreover, I can not work up a lot of sentiment for a guy who is making more money than god and will make it again next year regardless of where he is. The problem is that old ballplayers are not like old soldiers, they do not just fade away. They do not go gently into that sweet night, they rave, rave against not getting the the calls from the umpires on the outside of the plate.

norma48 ……Are you bragging or complaining?

Hey, zach58……..I’m NOT married! 😉

norma48:………I do not know what is going on but my comment at 7:12 PM is in response to your post indicating 7:18 PM. Little did I know that by posting here I would become a time traveler.

D’ya think Cliff Lee likes pitching in Philly? Time to start asking for the hometown discount before Lidge blows one of his games.

phan52: Cliff Lee is a genuine Ace. Regardless of what we’ve been sold on Myers and Hamels, this guy can pitch. Sometimes our perspective is warped based on what we know. Now we know what a real pitcher can do. Lee is so far ahead of Hamels it’s amazing. He’s Carlton-like in his approach and results.

I think I have the answer to the time travel thing, pherris. Click on the last post at ‘Recent Comments’ before you post and I’m pretty sure that it will appear after it. If you click on one of the posts at random and then take a little time before you leave a comment, it will appear after the post you clicked on.

I think….

pherrisphain…….Bragging! LOL!

First off, joed21 and erichh1, thanks for the kind thoughts on the personal side of life…I’m currently 3 1/2 yrs. a survivor ….so God is good and I am blessed! That’s one of the reasons the WS win was so sweet last year — I got to celebrate it in Philadelphia in my 50th year along with 2.5 million people — how cool is that?!

This summer I decided to volunteer as a cabin big buddy for Camp Erin here in HI and it was a most wonderful experience to be able to help kids who have lost a loved one — many of them to cancer. Winning the WS was Jamie’s dream, helping kids is Karen’s and I am glad they have created this opportunity to help kids through their grief. I highly recommend it to any of you who are able to participate in some capacity to make it happen in your community. You will not regret it.

Back to baseball, I agree with you, joed21, that attention-grabbing episodes are not Moyer’s style. I wasn’t there to see it for myself , but one could surmise that he said his piece in Chicago, doesn’t want to comment on it anymore and is going about the business of getting his job done on the mound and at the plate — THAT is the story. Period. His results have been up and down this season, much like many others on the team. Charlie has dealt with each in a way that has made the individual and the team better. Each of us has our day-to-day battles to face but most of us don’t do it in the public eye — how we face those battles, go through them and get to the other side are what make us better people and better contributors. Each one of these guys owns a piece of 1st place right now — in the division and, dare I say it, in our hearts. Keep our liberty bell ringing boys — I hear it 5,000 miles away and it’s a beautiful sound to my ears each and every time!

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