Moyer, Dobbs Become Free Agents; Unlikely to Return

moyer 0507 2010.jpgIt looks like the end for Jamie Moyer and Greg Dobbs in Phillies uniforms.

The Phillies said today that Moyer and Dobbs, who was eligible for salary arbitration, have become unrestricted free agents. Both players could return in 2011, although it is highly unlikely. The Phillies placed both players on waivers earlier this week to expedite the process for them to become free agents, which is a pretty good sign they don’t plan to bring them back. Once they cleared waivers, each player filed for free agency.

The waiver process also allowed the Phillies to clear two spots on the 40-man roster.

Moyer, who turns 48 next month, finished the season on the disabled list with an injured elbow. He is going to pitch Winter Ball in the Dominican Republic to see if he can pitch and possibly get a contract before Spring Training.

It is unlikely the Phillies would bring back Moyer on anything other than a non-guaranteed contract.

“I don’t know if Jamie would accept anything like that, but we haven’t had any discussions about it,” Ruben Amaro Jr. said. “I think more than anything else there are some questions about his health. Obviously his age is a factor. But we have to consider our starting pitching depth and see whether or not bringing Jamie back is the right thing for us.”

Ben Francisco, Kyle Kendrick and Dobbs were each eligible for salary arbitration. Amaro said they have made no decisions on Francisco or Kendrick. The fact the Phillies allowed Dobbs to become a free agent so quickly also indicates he is unlikely to return.

Dobbs, who just completed the second year of a $2.5 million contract, hit a combined .284 with 19 home runs and 95 RBIs in 550 at-bats from 2007-08 as he established himself as one of the game’s top pinch-hitters. He hit a combined .221 with 10 homers and 35 RBIs in 317 at-bats the previous two seasons as his playing time dropped.

“When you’re talking about bench guys and they’re not getting to play a lot, it’s hard to evaluate,” Amaro said. “He had some success when he was getting a chance to play more. We got into a situation where he wasn’t playing a whole lot, so obviously his production dropped off. But it’s hard to stay sharp. I’ve gone through it myself as a player. You have one good year one bad year. It’s kind of the nature of the job. He could come back and have a great year for someone, and it could be us. But at this time it was pretty evident we weren’t going to be putting him through the salary arbitration process, so why not give us some space on our roster and give him an opportunity to be out there on the open market a little earlier?”

Catcher Paul Hoover also filed for free agency after the Phillies outrighted him to Triple-A Lehigh Valley.


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Say it ain’t so! How are they going to survive without a .196-hitting backup third baseman and a lefty with a changeup fastball? Get to work replacing them, Ruben! It shouldn’t be too difficult.

Thanks Jamie and Greg for the time you were part of the Phils current run. Good luck in your futures.

Todd, the zo-zone has become a kind of on-line ghost town…;o(

I’m thankful for the class and character that Jamie Moyer and Greg Dobbs brought to this team along with their obvious and remarkable contributions during their playing time with Philadelphia. Those of us that grew up in the Philly area couldn’t have been happier for Jamie to be able to see his dream come true right along with the rest of us. I wish them (and their families) all the best and hope to one day in the not-too-distant future see Jamie back with Philadelphia in a coaching capacity.

If we had more posters like erichh1 maybe this blog wouldn’t be such a ghost town. Not talking down to people would be a good place to start. There are times this blog has been a lot of fun with a funny and diverse but respectful crowd of people who enjoy the game of baseball. Lately, not so much.

Not a ghost town, just everyone is worn down. Thanks Jamie and Gregg for several good years and playing key roles for the last few years. (JC too)

WHile it is definately time for both Moyers and Dobbs to move on, we fans should give both of them a standing ovation for all they did for this team over the past season. Who can forget how great a pinch hitter Dobbs was in ’08? Jamie added class, mentorship an dmore wins then any other pitcher since he joined. Both will be missed.

I am sorry if I cannot get all kumbaya over this news. Adios to Jamie. Here’s to hoping he can hook up with another NL team and suck up its resources. It was painful to watch this guy pitch especially when the umpires did not expand the strike zone out about 2 feet of either side of home plate. This news probably comes too late for Kyle Kendrick whose progress was impeded by Moyer.

Pherris: Kendrick’s progress was inpeded by his inability to throw anything but a sinker for a strike or hit. He’s inconcistency is why he’s not even a certainty for the 5th starter’s role next year. Don’t blame Jamie who throws more pitches then a catcher has fingers and even at 48 was able to throw complete game shutouts

I am very happy for Jamie Moyer that he was able to live a dream and win a championship in his hometown. But I am curious about why he would want to continue his career. The Dominican Winter League? Doesn’t he have a family with something like 8 kids? Maybe he thinks he can win 300 games or something. Whatever, if his career continues I hope it is elsewhere. The Phillies need to be developing some younger arms at this point.

See that, Belle? The fun is back! Talk of sucking up resources and remembering stuff from 2 years ago. Back in business, baby!
Let’s all try to be more like erichh.

I’ll give them a standing ovation while I’m holding the door open for them.

I grew up here too, but Jamie had his time.
?I don?t want to go to spring training and be a comedy act,? Moyer said after the NLCS ended, ?If I?m going to pitch, I?m going to go somewhere, whether it is here or another team, and compete for a job.?
Maybe he could try out for a cast position on Saturday Night Live?

fij: give me a break. Moyer has been a waste for the last two years. I guess that is why his fellow waste, Junior, has paid him so much for those two years. If memory serves me correctly, Kendrick earned the 5th spot coming out of spring training this year. But it was given to Moyer. Why? Because if it wasn’t given to Moyer, WTF would Junior do to justify his salary and exactly what role would Moyer have played on the Phillies? If all it takes is one complete game shutout to buy your affections, the only thing I can say is that you are easy.

That CG shutout was followed by a 1 inning, 9 hit, 9 run outing in Boston. After that he won 3 straight and lost 3 straight. It all evens out.
What it speaks to is the dearth of pitching in the majors. 5-man rotations give guys like Moyer big league jobs. I hope Nolan Ryan can start something to change that in Texas.

Nolan Ryan has other issues to worry about in Texas. Like a bullpen that doesn’t implode on a daily basis.

It will very interesting to see what happens with Moyer. I hope he just retires. Does he really think someone will sign him? Seems like wishful thinking. I always thought Dobbs should go into broadcasting, but I’m sure someone will pick him up.

phan: What better reason to want to stretch out your starters than having a suspect bullpen? It seems like Washington can’t make a right move by bringing those guys into a game. Derek Holland should dress up as Walker, Texas Ranger for Halloween.

karen: Somebody will probably sign Dobbs to a minor league deal. Moyer might latch on (like a leech) to a team who thinks his veteran leadership skills are worth the money they’ll pay him. That’s the sorry state of baseball now.

A ghost town no more! Gotta love the “spirit” of the Philly fan base. It will be interesting to see where Dobbs, Moyer and J.C. end up. Mule, I know I’m sentimental and I need to become more thick-skinned like you. I said what I had to say from my heart about Jamie Moyer because it’s true and right to honor someone who is leaving the team that made a big difference in ’08 especially. We all know it’s time for him to move on to the next chapter now, whatever it may be. You get my vote for writing his SNL material.

muleman, I suspect that if anybody went to a four man rotation, it would require MORE bullpen work, not less.
Holland went from an ALCS hero to a WS goat and the Giants have already scored more runs in two games than they did in the entire NLCS. It is just their year.

phan: Who said anything about a 4-man rotation? I’m talking about stretching starters and stopping the stupid pitch-count, which I think is Ryan’s idea.

Who decided pitch count is stupid? Nolan Ryan? I am going to believe anything said by someone who speaks with a drawl? I guess Billy Martin and Dusty Baker would agree with Ryan but probably not the pitchers who had to play for those turkeys. Stretching starters – what a euphemism for beating the step-child or the rented mule.

Oh, by the way, since we are on the subject of pitch counts, I think the Lee trade really s-u-c-k-e-d.

pherris: What happened? Did you get up on the wrong side of the slab this morning? What else do we have to talk about around here? Elbow surgery? There isn’t even a game tonight. You want to beat a dead mule (or horse), get Joe Buck to start talking about Josh Hamilton’s battle against addiction.

phan: That’s the same Derek Holland who stunk it up in the ALDS. Your LCS “hero” came back to form. And why would a 4-man rotation necessitate more relief pitchers? I’d guess (and be right) that when 4-man rotations and long starter outings were going on, relief pitchers spent a lot of time in the bullpen and not on the field.
Why bother signing a superstar pitcher for millions only to leave his 6th inning to a guy who isn’t good enough to be in AAA? I’d think that the people who are writing the checks would want their high-paid starters to go deep into games to justify their salaries. But they prefer to coddle them and leave their fate to a group of guys who are more unreliale than the weather forecast.
Talk amongst yourselves.

muleman, muleman……Yes, yes for back in the days of yore when knights were bold and chivalry was in flower and those mighty men of the diamond would go out there and throw 150 or 2oo pitches a game, turn after turn after turn. Truth is it probably never happened in quite that way. The good ones who we are all familar with probably hovered around the 100 pitch mark because they were good. The rest are mere footnotes or five or six line entries in baseball references. The last one to leave pitchers out there was Billy Martin with the A’s in the early 1980s and the only thing he succceeded in doing was blowing out a pitching staff en masse. By the way, have I told you lately how much the Cliff Lee trade s-u-c-k-e-d. Oh, I have? Sorry about that.

well pherris, to paraphrase Edward G. Robinson in ‘The Ten Commandments’…
“Where’s your Cliff Lee now?”

Well, phan52, I just wish some of the Phillies pitchers could have the same kind of playoff and world series “failure” that Cliff Lee has had.

What I don’t understand is, with all the talk about the “economics of baseball” and the money spent on talent, why owners would want to spend money on losers like Kendrick and other “5th starters” when they could just as easily spend it on guys who could pitch every 4th day. How did it happen?
pherris, you can spout your “truth” but you haven’t done any research (surprise) because you never do any. All you do is plead your ridiculous case based on your bias. Jim Palmer had a higher winning percentage on 3 days’ rest than he did on 4, as did Nolan Ryan. How is it that guys of that era weren’t “blown out” while guys now suddenly need 4 days’ rest to pitch 6 innings? The human body is the same now as it was then.
Think for once, instead of just spewing.

muleman: you can’t research something that isn’t there. A four man rotation would be at least 40 starts per pitcher over a 162 game season. The 1971 Orioles top four pitchers started 142 games. Could we call the guys who picked up the remaining 20 games, a fifth starter? So much for 4 guys grinding it out every 4th day or is that every 4th game? See a distinction there, buddy, between every 4th day and every 4th game? Which do you mean? Regardless, the fact that 63 of the starts were made after one of the top four had 4 days rest or more kind of makes a days/games distinction a moot point. The bottom line – the days of wooden teeth and iron arm is a myth.

pherris: I think maybe libertybelle was right. There are some people on here who talk down to others. Check a mirror.

Ever hear of the disabled list? Maybe one or more of their regular 4 starters was injured during the season, accounting for some of the games? They used to play scheduled doubleheaders then, too. I’d say that a doubleheader would necessitate another pitcher to be used, since 2 days’ rest is too much, even for them.
You’re such a jackass sometimes. There, I said it.

muleman, go to Baseball Reference and randomly pick a team of yore, say the 1954 NY Giants. There are five starters who have a minimum of 18 starts, none more than 37. Then go to the ‘schedule and results’ page and you will see that teams had a lot more off days because of travel. That allowed teams to have 3-4 of their better pitchers get the bulk of the starts and still have four days rest in between. It is a myth that starters after the dead ball era pitched regularly on three days rest. A guy like Dizzy Dean and Robin Roberts did it, but that was an anomaly, not a regular thing.

phan: I don’t have to pick a “team of yore.” I can pick pherris’ example, the ’71 Orioles, who played 158 games. Consider:
Mike Cuellar 38 GS, 21 CG
Pat Dobson 38 GS, 18 CG
Jim Palmer 37 GS, 20 CG
Dave McNally 30 GS, 11 CG
That’s 70 complete games from 4 starters. SEVENTY. Where’s your bullpen? Who gives a crap. All of those guys had lengthy careers, in spite of pitching 1,080 innings total. Their closer, Eddie Watt had a ******** 11 saves.
Only Grant Jackson (9 starts), Dave Leonhard (6 starts) and Dave Boswell (1 start) had any other starts for that team. Not sure where pherris got his 20 games, but his math is a little fuzzy.
For those of you who think that bullpens would be worn out with a 4-man rotation, don’t you think that Halladay, Oswalt and Hamels are comparable to Palmer, Cuellar and Dobson? I do. So, take your “days of yore” and …

I can pick another team if you want, but I’d say I’d get similar results.

That wasn’t even their best year as a group with the most starts (’72) but they’re just another anomaly, muleman. Go ahead, pick another team and try to find stats like that. You can’t.
And where did you get the idea that Halladay, Oswalt and Hamels are comparable? They had 12 CG’s between them. Hamels has 7 in his entire career and has NEVER pitched on three days rest in his life.

phan: I can’t tell if you’re being arumentive or if you’re just ignorant. I’ll choose to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you’re just arguing for the sake of it.

MY POINT is that pitchers today don’t throw complete games. However, I would still compare Halladay to Palmer, and Oswalt and Hamels to Cuellar and Dobson or McNally. Put those guys in that same time frame and they’d accomplish the same things. Geez.
I can find plenty of teams like that. The great Cardinals teams of that era, the Tigers and others had complete game pitching staffs and closers who saved barely 10 percent of their team’s wins.

What I’d like to know is, why did starting pitching become a 5 to 6-inning affair, and why are teams enamored with pitch counts? The guys in the late 60s and 70s weren’t inferior by any means, but we are continually told that guys today are better athletes. By what standard?
They don’t pitch as often or as long.

The concept of a ‘save’ is a relatively new development. I remember watching an interview with Goose Gossage and he said that he would go into a game at a critical juncture, not just the end game. If there were two on and one out, with the middle of the order coming up in the seventh inning, he was in the game. And he would probably finish it as well. I remember Tug McGraw used to do the same thing all the time. In 1980 he pitched in 57 games and pitched 92 innings. Only 17 of his appearances were solely in the 9th inning.
Pitch counts came into vogue with free agency and the big contracts. Teams don’t want to mess with their investment. It’s one of the reasons the Phillies don’t want to give pitchers more than three year contracts.

muleman, I think the reason those teams won because of the overall talent on those rosters as opposed to the singular aspect of complete games. And to suggest that Rollie Fingers and Goose Gossage weren’t factors, well, the MLB HOF would beg to differ. Bullpens definitely came into vogue as a weapon in the 70’s, and most of the teams you mention there definitely used them to their advantage. They just hadn’t come up with the idea of the strict 3-out save yet.
BTW, how come you don’t mention the A’s of the early 80’s? They actually had a season with over 90 complete games, but they never won anything and Billy Martin blew out the collective arms of a young, talented pitching staff. Unfortunately, that team was probably the genesis of the pitch count.

Gossage had a lot of 3-inning saves too. That’s still part of the rule, although you’d never know it. Now, managers are criticized for using a closer for more than 3 outs. I realize the game evolves, but sometimes evolution creates its own problems.

OK, so I spent 10 minutes and found:
1968 Cardinals 62 CG (Hoerner 17 saves) –
1968 Tigers 53 CG (Pat Dobson 7 saves) –
1972 Tigers 44 CG (Seelbach 14 saves) –
1971 A’s 55 CG (Fingers 17 saves) –
1972 A’s 42 CG (Fingers 21 saves) –
1976 Yankees 60 CG –
1977 Yankees 51 CG –

That’s just puttering around. OK, so nobody had 70 complete games (although 2 had 60 and 3 had over 50) but the point is that those teams all won, and had bunches of complete games with closers who saw less action than Vance Worley. Anomaly? I think not.
And I didn’t have to go back to the “days of yore” either.

I’d think that the investment would necessitate actually USING it, and not removing the guy after the sacred 100-pitch count number. How does the body know what 100 is?

muleman, I got timewarped in my response to your last post. It is on here before your last post.

phan: At work, I didn’t have a lot of time to do exhaustive research. I’m not trying to tie-in complete games to wins and losses, even though those teams won a lot of games.
What I’m doing is wondering (a) How the pitch count came into vogue, even though successful teams didn’t use it and (b) Why teams would sign big-name starters to huge contracts and not want to utilize them. Why leave a game up to a half-million dollar relief pitcher? IT doesn’t make economical sense, let alone baseball sense.
Maybe there’s a book somewhere that details the downfall of it all. Maybe it has its roots in Little League where kies aren’t allowed to throw? I don’t know.
What I do know is that I get a huge thrill out of seeing guys like Halladay throw 9 innings, and I miss the days when guys like Palmer, Gibson, Lolich et al could go out and throw a baseball game.
There is something romantic about seeing a guy on the mound who started the game, finish it. Sorry if I’m an old-timer (at 53) but I think, if you polled baseball fans, they’d say the same thing.

muleman, I am older than you and my Dad was a huge baseball phan, with a particular appreciation of pitching. So I spent my youth going to Bunning/Marichal, Short/Gibson type matchups that took about 2 hours or less to play. I remember going to many Carlton complete games in the ’70’s. I certainly prefer that type of baseball.
But there is no doubt in my mind that the change occurred with the advent of the big contracts. One of the first big pitching contracts was Catfish Hunter, and the Yankees got a few good years at best out of him until they burned him out. There are other instances as well and MLB teams are very careful that they get something out of their investments now, even if it means that the likes of Durbin and Baez get a lot of innings. Do you think the Mets are going to let Santana go deep into games now after the results of the last couple of years? I would agree that it doesn’t make baseball sense, but I am sure that they believe it makes economic sense. It is the state of the game, and I really don’t see it changing.

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