Papelbon, Rollins Agree: Don’t Trade Hamels

I’m not in Kansas City this week, but I wanted to pass this along …

When asked yesterday about the possibility Cole Hamels is traded before the end of the month, Jonathan Papelbon told reporters, “I don’t necessarily know if our clubhouse would take that too well.”

That echoes a similar comment Jimmy Rollins made in a telephone interview Sunday evening.

“If guys are going to get traded, it has nothing to do with contracts,” Rollins said. “That means that was their plan from the beginning. You just don’t trade a guy right now, especially a guy like Cole Hamels, for example, just because the team is losing. You don’t do that. If you’re going to let them go to free agency and hope to sign them after the season, then that’s what you’re going to do. You’re not going to all of a sudden start jumping to trade guys. That doesn’t make any sense.

“I know that’s what a lot of times people want to see happen: ‘Well, we need to start rebuilding the team.’ No, you don’t. You don’t hit the panic button. You let it play out. And with some guys, you have to take a chance.”

I’m guessing almost everybody in the clubhouse would feel the same way. It just adds another challenge to the front office: selling the trade to the team as a good thing, if they make it.


I love Rollins and I’m glad he wll (hopefully) retire a Phillie, but he should stick to playing ball. Being a GM is not his job.

If you are out of the race, then you trade a guy and get some talent either for now or the future. If you let it play out and Hamels sign elsewhere (which is likely to happen), then you have a crap season that you let “played out” and nothing to show for the lost of a great piece.

Well, I happen to agree with Jimmy even though it’s not a popular opinion. There are some players you just don’t trade and Cole is one of them.

If the BoSox can (stupidly) sell Babe Ruth, there is no such thing as an untradable player. That said, I’d rather they pay Cole the $25 million he wants and be done with it

Jimmy needs to work on not popping up and stop popping off.

I fully expect Shane to be traded. That will be the shot across the bow. (They’re not going to re-sign him anyway.)

And the next move (if things don’t improve) will be to fire Charlie & replace him with Ryne Sandberg.

It is impossible to get fair value for a player like Hamels. Prospects don’t cut it, as it is impossible to know how they will develop as MLB players. Sign Hamels. That’s the best prospect.

phan52, in my estimation it’s a matter of getting the “most value” for Hamels rather than getting “fair value”. I believe under the new CBA, Hamels’ value has diminished since a team acquiring Hamels during the season does not get a compensatory pick if Hamels subsequently is lost by them in the off season through free agency. As much as a crap shoot as the MLB draft may be, as least the acquiring team could take some solace from the fact it would at least get a first round for whomever they gave up for renting Hamels for the remainder of this year.

I am aware that any team acquiring Cole could not offer arbitration and receive picks. That is exactly my point. There is no way to get “fair value” for a player with an expiring contract anymore. So, don’t do it. Sign him, especially if he’s a 28 year old lefthanded ace.

I know everyone here has heard it a trillion times, but we have 10 million coming off for Blanton, 8.5 coming off for Polanco, 8 million coming off from Victorino + the off few million from other players not coming back. Moving 10 million on top of Cole’s 15 to give him 25 is not beyond management’s ability. DO that, throw 10 a year at Bourn and try to get a 3B somewhere.

Either way no one will be happy with any of it…

I sincerely hope they don’t trade him without getting a really good deal or unless they are sure that they cannot resign him. Unless he is telling the front office something radically different than what he is saying publicly, I can’t see option #2. I read an interview with him from someone (Todd?) about how even if they traded him he wouldn’t rule out coming back ala Cliff. So if the team can get someone good that they NEED for him now, and clear it with Cole ahead of time and tell him they will try their best to resign him in the offseason and he is cool with that (as he publicly stated he would be), then they should go for it. But only if the price is right – they need good bullpen help #1, and a LF #2. Don’t be trading him for someone they don’t need, like another starter, or a bunch of uncertain prospects. That’s my $0.02, anyway. I’ll be interested in seeing how they handle this…

what they need is a 3B and a CF. They can survive with Pierre or Brown in LF.

You don’t start trading off your entire team because of one bad year. 5 division titles, two pennants and world series over the past 6 years. There’s no reason to think they can’t win next year. If they struggle like this again next year, then it may be time to start rebuilding. But because of 3 bad months over the past 5 and half years and everyone wants to start trading people? Come on. You can’t win every year.

This is not 3 bad months. This is a culmination of at least 3 bad years under Ruin Tommorow Jr. as GM starting with not trading Werth instead of letting him play out his contract and entering free agency. It has continued with holding onto Victorino too long. And it is magnified by the fact the Phillies have to think twice about resigning Hamels. Why? Because of all of Junior’s bone-headed moves. Even what he gave up for Halladay and Pence is suspect at this time. And, what it cost the Phillies to jerk around Cliff Lee is another story.

Jerk around? We offered the least amount of money to Lee out of the 3 teams who wanted him. 3 bad years? Why? Because they didn’t win the Series every single year? Having the best record in all of baseball last year is a b ad year? And why would you trade Werth? In fact if he had traded him, he would have crucified for during it. We didn’t want Werth to leave. Amaro tried to sign him but he elected to go to Washington.

pherris, I really have to wonder how you think the last 3 years were “bad years”. They improved their record every year, culminating in the best record in their history in 2011. Too bad Ruben can’t buy you guarantees, but he did the next best thing by buying and trading for the best team. It was up to the players at that point. I’m more inclined to blame them for falling short in the postseason, and I want to see how Ruben handles this downturn before I throw him under the bus.
And BTW, the Phillies are not “thinking twice” about re-signing Hamels. They will make every effort to do so and money is not the issue.

“3 bad years?” I don’t know. I think 2009 was pretty good. They made it to another World Series. The last 2 have been worse by comparison, but not bad by any means.

The thing I’ve been thinking about is this: In 2004 they opened a ballpark that admittedly was a hitters park. While the ensuing teams were among the best offensively in the team’s history, they then chose to go with the “Four Aces” approach and spent a fortune on pitching while their vaunted lineup aged and struggled.
They didn’t win in 2008 with pitching. They had good, but not great pitching. A great closer and a good enough bullpen to carry the load.
This team suffers offensively and that is where I find fault. They over-spent on pitching and neglected their offense. Ruben kept saying that they should hit to their potential, but that potential has decreased every year since 2009.
Now, they find themselves in a big hole with contracts that nobody wants in trade and pitching that can’t overcome their offensive deficiencies.

I think they need to trade one of their pitchers. Preferably Lee, and free-up enough money to find some hitting. Hamels and Halladay will be plenty if they can go back to scoring runs.
Their woeful home record this season is proof enough that my thinking is correct.

I’d take these last few years any day. They may not have won it all since 2008, but they have sure have been entertaining and exciting to watch. It will be interesting to see what happens at the trade deadline and at the end of the season. I tend to agree with others here that finding another bat is definitely a priority along with some half-way decent bullpen pitchers. There will be many holes at the end of the season 3rd base, center & left field and the pen. If this means Lee is gone so be it. If they don’t resign Hamels I think that the fans (at least this one) will be very disappointed. To me he’s a valuable asset to build for the future.

Maybe the Phillies great season records just prove how weak the NL East was rather than how good the Phillies teams were from 2009-2011. Phan52, do you think it is possible the Phillies were not as good as their record indicated? If not, please explain why the Phillies post-season digressed every year? Do you think Junior’s bone headed moves might have played a part in this digression? And, you know the Phillies are trying hard to resign Hamels exactly how? Let me guess, Junior as you were attempting to get him out from under the bus. Ever heard of smoke and mirrors?
And, muleman, either I am toking on too many doobies or you have just given the best, most concise explanation of the orgins of the Phillies current woes to date. Don’t bogart that joint my friend pass it around again.

pherris, the Phillies had major issues in the first half of last season but, after Utley came back and they traded for Pence, they were the highest scoring team in the NL in the second half. Junior made the necessary moves (including bringing up the young kids for the bullpen) to get them in psosition for the 2011 postseason.
The Phillies went into that postseasoin with everything going for them and who know what would have happened if Cliff Lee hadn’t given up a four run lead for the first time in his career. I don’t blame Junior for what happened in the NLDS. Now, I’m willing to see what he does with his biggest challenge yet and he could very well fall on his face. The players will determine what direction (buy or sell) he chooses. I’ll revisit this with you at this time next season because he’s David Montgomery’s boy and he isn’t going anywhere at this point.

Thanks, pherris. All of the teams who the Phillies were compared with (the 90s Braves and 60s Orioles) with great pitching staffs also had great lineups. Yes, pitching is important, but they still have to score runs. I said it in 2010 and I’m still saying it. I never bought into the “Four Aces” marketing scheme.

The issue isn’t breaking up the team for the hell of it, Jim. We are at a crossroads. Victorino is a FA, Polanco is a FA, Hamels is a FA. These changes need to be addressed. You can play it out this year and start to retool in offseason (which is what they’d do if they were winning) or you can do it now while using what little currency you have to pay with. I expect them to sign Cole, trade Victorino and begin to retool.

RAJ’s problem is he dind’t build the team for today (’09-’11) while taking into account tomorrow (’12-’14) at the same time. Look at Yanks, Texas and other top teams to see mix of old expensive players and young cheap players. Our youngsters, for the most part, suck

I hate to say it but Yankees are the Gold Standard for what you describe F-I-J. And, yes they can do what they have done because of the money but even they realize a point of diminishing returns by trying to get their payroll into the $180 million range by 2014 or just about where the Phillies are now. The major difference, the Phillies are handicapped by Ruin Tomorrow Junior who doesn’t have a clue as evident by his incessant attempts to assemble a team which would gone all the way “last year”.

Phan, I also hate to admit that the YUuckees are the standard at mixing great FA signings and adding great home grown talent. Sometimes you have to learn from the bad guys

There is a major difference between what the Yankees do and what the Phillies do. The Yankees sign high-end, high-priced free agents (Texeira, Sabatha, etc.). The Phillies free agents are middle-ranged players (Ibanez, Polanco, etc.) and they TRADE for the high-end guys (outside of the Lee signing). It does deplete the farm a little bit, but I ask you to show me one single player they have traded since 2008 who would have contributed anything at all to the MLB club at this point. And the players who Junior drafted that are still here are not ready for prime time yet. That’s what happens when you draft high school kids and young Latin players. Gotta wait.

Phan, yes there is a difference between what the Yankees do and what the Phillies do. Isn’t that the problem? Montgomery will get the wake up call as soon as the sold out games end. There is a good chance that will be by the end of this season in my opinion if the Phillies do not put together a respectable surge the remainder of this year and at least get into the hunt for the wildcard slots. Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd for Freddie Garcia. One thing for sure if a team takes the attitude that minor league players are fungible it is guaranteed there will be no surprises.

The big difference is that the Yankees win and the Frillies, well we all know what they do. hey good luck with that attendance thing.

Great pherris. You come up with one trade where the “prospects” paid off. But guess what? That wasn’t Ruben, it was Pat Gillick who happens to be in the HOF. And if you look into it, Gillick got Gonzalez in another trade and flipped him in the Garcia trade. He pitched for one year at AA in the Phillies system, going 7-12 with a 4.86 ERA and a 1.429 WHIP. Nobody mourned Gio Gonzalez at the time and Floyd was considered a bust by just about everybody in MLB.
The vast majority of “prospects” never get more than a sniff at The Show. Fungible, indeed.

phan, It was Gillick? You don’t say?. Now tell me something I don’t know. It doesn’t matter who traded him, The point is he was one of the “fungibles”. Of the 13 minor leaguers traded away by Junior alone, five are on all top 100 minor leaguer lists. Another 3 or 4 are in the majors. Seems once upon a time some one in the Phillies organization knew what they were doing..

Boy, i knew you guys weren’t that good, but God, what’s that smell? You guys are stinking up the NL East. $200 Million dollar payroll and this is the best you can do? Ouch, You guys are arguing over whether to trade the last frilly with any trade value, man that is pretty pathetic. Gonna be a long rode back. See you guys when Weinus Wain is cashing his Social Security checks. What difference does it make whether you trade Hamels or not? You guys have more holes than a cheese grater,

Phillies want 2 high prospects for Polanco? That is what I like about Ruin Tomorrow Jr., always pushing that envelope.

I think you misunderstood. They said Ruben was high when he asked for 2 prospects for Polanco.

My bad. High or not, we can expect Ruin to through in a fungible or two to seal the deal. After all, isn’t that what fungibles are for?

Make that “throw in” rather than “through in”. Spell check can’t check on stupid.

In most organizations, yes, “fungibles” are expendible. It’s strange that I see other teams with youngsters making impacts (large and small) while the Phillies chose to stick with their veterans. Ruben sold the farm for these pitchers, then sold one of them back to “replenish the farm system.” Where are those guys? Taking up space.
Domonic Brown has set this organization back at least 2 years. If he can’t be a Heyward-type of player, they’re really screwed. And it looks like he won’t be one.

Case in point Worley. Where did he come from? Now he is the Phillies #2 pitcher due to circumstances and his ability to seize the moment when given the chance. And he makes minimum wage to boot.

off all the prospects the Phillies traded away the past 5 years, can anyone name one of them who is DOING anything in the Majors. Remember being told how all these guys were future HoFers? To my knowledge the ones in the Majors are bench players or second rate starters. Can’t blame RAJ for those deals. However, why don’t the phillies have at least 1-2 top prospects to play the field? Even our Baby Aces aren’t top guys it seems. Here lies the problem

What is your point? How about the draft picks Ruin gave up by signing Ibanez, Polanco and Lee as free agents? How about the 5 prospects given up who are now on all top 100 prospect lists? That would be 5 out of 13 prospects traded. Prospects turn into Howard, Hamels, Utley and Rollins. Where would the Phillies have been without these guys for the last 6 years? They didn’t just magically appear. It is the long haul. Ruin is the general who gears up to fight the last war and not the next.


Frillies are gonna have to do a complete rebuild all Houston. Good luck doing that with that Chump GM of yours.

And, Q-tip does such a stand up job? If keeping a team mediocre year after year, I guess he does. Draws in enough fans to pay the electric bill but not much else.

The only time a prospect is a sure fire MLB player is when he’s plauying in the big leagues. What happened to Drabek, Donalds, Madson, Taylor, etc…So far, none of the prospects traded have amounted to squat. However, Lee, Halladay, Pence, Lidge have all done lots for the Phillies. As for dradft pics not taken, kind of like the girl you didn’t hit on in the bar—you’ll never know and not worth worrying about

Yeah, what happened to those guys? More importantly, what happened to the Phillies?

Wow pherris. Some ex-Phillies are “Top 100 prospects”. I will suggest that the last word there is the operative one. I remember when Drabek and Michael Taylor were “Top 100 prospects” as well. Let me know when the prospects do anything close to what players like Lee, Halladay and Pence are capable of doing.
The Phillies don’t suck because of the players they traded for.

I suppose a series win against the Rockies is fool’s gold, but they have to start somewhere. Plus the rumors are pretty strong that contract talks with Hamels are hot and heavy. That’s one player they can’t let go.

Phan, I’ll let you know when any of the “fungibles” has done something. You let me know when either Halladay or Lee or Pence has done something. None of these guys, either singly or in combination, has ever carried the Phillies the way Howard has at times or at any time for that matter.

Phan, wins against the Rockies is fools gold? I guess the great 102 win season did not have any wins against fools?

Context, pherris, context. You are comparing 3 games to 162. If you wish to debate something, cool it with the hyperbole.

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